Once upon a time, in a mystical land far away, there stood a massive magical wood marble tree. This extraordinary tree was unlike anything the world had ever seen before. It towered above all other trees in the enchanted forest, its branches reaching towards the heavens. The massive wood marble tree possessed a unique and awe-inspiring power. Its trunk was made of solid enchanted wood, which shone with an ethereal and vibrant glow. The bark of the tree was adorned with intricate patterns and designs, as if created by the finest craftsmen.

SRD:Talisman of Pure Good

Talisman of Pure Good: A good (LG, NG, CG) divine spellcaster who possesses this item can cause a flaming crack to open at the feet of an evil (LE, NE, CE) divine spellcaster who is up to 100 feet away. The intended victim is swallowed up forever and sent hurtling to the center of the earth. The wielder of the talisman must be good, and if he is not exceptionally pure in thought and deed the evil character gains a DC 19 Reflex saving throw to leap away from the crack. Obviously, the target must be standing on solid ground for this item to function.

A talisman of pure good has 6 charges. If a neutral (LN, N, CN) divine spellcaster touches one of these stones, he takes 6d6 points of damage. If an evil divine spellcaster touches one, he takes 8d6 points of damage. All other characters are unaffected by the device.

Strong evocation [good]; CL 18th.

Dragonsfoot

One of my players has a cleric with one of these and it may yet come into play, possibly saving the party from utter destruction.

The item description disallows a saving throw if the cleric has been "exceptionally pure" in their faith. What about magic resistance? Would this circumvent a magic resistance check too?

shimrod Lesser Deity of Dragonsfoot
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Post by shimrod » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:47 pm

I absolutely hate this item.

Btb, it is completely indefensible yet is utterly reliant on the most subjective of a DM's rulings, that of "purity."

Because of the cheese factor, I would allow MR to come into play and I would allow a modified saving throw (-2 to -4) because for this item I would have a very high threshold for "purity."

But you'd never see one in my game.

Post by Bedivere » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:53 pm

I just had this issue come up in my campaign, and it turns out that there’s a lot left to interpretation with this item. If I knew what a pain it would be, I never would have placed it as a treasure.

First, the description states that the victim will be "swallowed up forever by a flaming crack which will open at the feet of the victim and precipitate him to the center of the earth."

Game mechanics effect: 1 evil cleric killed without possibility of recovery, no save.

Does a crack really open up? Is it a literal fiery crack to the center of the earth (dramatic, cataclysmic, and amazing, but otherwise mundane), or a figurative fiery crack - more like a gate to a lower plane that the victim is sucked through? What if the evil cleric can fly or levitate, and/or is resistant to fire and pressure? What if someone is standing next to the cleric? Does the crack cause structural or fire damage? (In my game, the talisman was used in some precarious and highly unstable ruins) How fast does it happen? What if it is used in an alternate environment other than standing on the ground? (underwater, flying, on another plane of existence, etc.)

For example, let’s just suppose that it’s a vampire cleric with Boots of Levitation and a Ring of Fire Resistance, and that this vampire cleric and the PC cleric tie on initiative, and the evil cleric is casting a Slay Living at the PC cleric, while closely flanked by servitor vampires, all beneath the crumbling ruins of a castle precariously perched on an overhanging cliff. For that matter, is a fiery crack an acceptable means of destroying a vampire? (all purely hypothetical, of course, because what kind of idiot DM would get himself into that situation?)

I guess the only thing that could be more ambiguous in this scenario is if the vampire cleric had magic resistance, and all this isn't even considering the question of whether or not the PC cleric had been exceptionally pure.

I know what my final ruling was (or would be, if that happened, I mean ), but I’m curious to know what other people think. I’ll reply again later with my ruling.

As an aside, I like the fact that the D&D immortal rules finds it necessary to specify just how much damage is done per round of being swallowed up by the earth.

Post by serleran » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:57 pm

Its easy to track "exceptional purity." You look at each one of the levels and the grade you provided to the PC, such as A or E. If they are all as good as they can possibly be, the cleric has been exceptionally pure, and his foe gets no save. If the cleric has not been exceptionally pure, a save is allowed. no modifier. MR is not allowed because it is not mentioned in the description of the item.

As to all the other questions: you're putting too much thought into it. The target gets killed, no other effect, and no impact on anyone or anything else.

Post by Bedivere » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:59 pm

serleran wrote: As to all the other questions: you're putting too much thought into it. The target gets killed, no other effect, and no impact on anyone or anything else.

It becomes a matter like the ones being discussed in other threads - "can a magic user swing a sword?" or "can a cleric use a dagger to cut a tomato without his god smiting him?" In a game like D&D, a lot of people are not satisfied with the "because the rules say so" aproach, particularly when the specific rule in question is especially counter to logic. If one of my players tried to have his MU make a "Summon Comet" spell, which pulls a mountain size comet from the heavens to streak down and strike the target, and he wanted it to do 1d4+1 /2 levels to one target and call it a first level spell, I wouldn't allow it. Sure, by the rules the effectes of the spell are equal to a 1st level spell, but the vast discrepancy between the desired spell effects and what logic would dictate the effects of a comet strike would be would make the spell silly.

I'm not satisfied with such rulings in my campaign, so I have to rule acordingly.

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Post by Onlondore » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:23 pm

There is something to be said for not over thinking some of this.

I once had a wizard PC cast a wall of fire. He spent several hours arguing to me about the incredible heat this wall must give off in the air above it. I believe the spell says you only take damage within a few feet of one side of the wall, or if you pass through it.

I finally said to him; "Look. It's magic! There is no wood or other fuel that is burning to make that wall of fire. At least not here. So there is no reason to try and argue about real world examples. Only the people in front of the wall take that damage, and that is just the damage listed by the spell.

Magic is magic. The fiery rift could open up and suck him in, then close back up forever. Is he dead? The PCs would never know without some divine contact.

Move along. Next encounter!

"If you wish to be dolorous, then no amount of drink and lively company will lift the pall, old friend. Talk, smile, laugh -- allow yourself to heal!"
Gary Gygax, Night Arrant; Cat or Pigeon?

garhkal Titan of Dragonsfoot
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Dragonsfoot

A "talisman of lawfulness" is found in the treasury of Lolth's Fane, but I can't find any details on it. I assume this item acts much like a talisman of pure good, but against chaotic priests?

wedge_hammersteel Envoy of Dragonsfoot
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Post by wedge_hammersteel » Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:33 pm

This small, silver device will cause any Patriarch to have the ability to sink an Evil High Priest to the center of the Earth forever. It contains seven charges. It may never be recharged. If any evil priest touches it, it will deliver 5d10 points of damage, and any other persons who touch the Talisman of Lawfulness, other than lawful priests, takes 5d6 points of damage.

From page 1423, volume 4 of Encyclopedia Magica. This tome indicates this item is a Greyhawk item.

Here are my nitpics.

The description mentions Patriarchs so the item's sink into the Earth power cant be used by clerics lower than level 8. It mentions High Priest so it will not sink evil priests, level 8 and below into the Earth. Patriarchs are level 8 and high priests are level 9.

Any lawful (good) priest can touch it to any evil priest for 5d10 damage. Any lawful (good) priest can touch it to any other evil class or chaotic good priest or neutral good priest for 5d6 damage. A lawful evil priest cant touch it because of the evil part.

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Post by Bregh » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:43 pm

It's likely a holdover name from the Classic D&D Supplement I: Greyhawk . The Talismans of Law/Chaos in that volume were renamed in the AD&D DMG to the Talisman of Pure Good and Talisman of Ultimate Evil.

(Aside: There were no Lawful High Priests in Classic D&D--at 8th level and above the level title was and remained Patriarch. Chaotic Clerics of 8th and above were Evil High Priests--cf. Eclavdra's shorthand stat block in G3--but there were no non-Chaotic HPs until the AD&D PHB .)

A few of those kinds of OD&D/AD&D crosses crop up in the G1-3/D1-3 series every now and again, owing to their early creation when both rulesets were concurrently available on the market (and, in some cases, the whole of AD&D had not yet even been written/released).

". we are not loath to answer your questions, but why have us do any more of your imagining for you?" Afterword , D&D vol. III

"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Timothy J. Kask, Foreward , Eldritch Wizardry

Post by Simak » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:16 pm

I don't think a lawful cleric could touch the talisman to another character for 5d6 damage. As an example, there is a difference between getting hit by Orcas' wand and actually touching it on your own will. IMO, the talisman only harms those that willingly touch it. A lawful cleric using it aggressively would not only be abusing this object, but he'd also be in violation of his alignment, IMO.

wedge_hammersteel Envoy of Dragonsfoot
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Post by wedge_hammersteel » Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:35 am

I don’t agree or disagree with you. What we are posting about is an "its up to the DM kinda thing."

Is the device sentient enough to know in what circumstance it is being touched?

If the device is lying on the ground and the evil cleric touches it with his fingers to pick it up then bam you get damage. But what if he uses his toes to pick it up or if he just steps on it with his bare feet?

What if the device is worn around the neck of the lawful cleric and the evil cleric snatches it and rips it from his neck?

Is the device thinking, "This evil cleric is trying to pick me up so I will activate my damage." or "I am being pressed against the flesh of the evil cleric but the evil cleric is not doing it himself so I will hold back on the damage."

What if the cleric uses his finger tip to touch it for a fraction of a second does he get any damage, what about full damage? Does there have to be substantial touch-age?

The description is not clear on the definition of touch. It is up to the DM to decide.

Second, how would a lawful cleric be in violation of his alignment by using the device for touch damage? For example, if the rules say that if a good cleric touches his holy symbol to the flesh of an undead creature, said creature takes damage, why cant you do the same with this device. Think of Buffy pressing her handheld cross to the forehead of a vampire and you see smoke, that vampire is taking damage. There is no alignment violation.

I would like to get DMPrata’s take on this.

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