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Field Herp Forum
Here's a fun one for those of you who live close to the border.
Herps that could be found in the USA, but haven't yet.
Bogertophis rosaliae (one record, probably legit, but very controversial. someone could find this if they tried)
Phyllodactylus homolepidurus
Bufo mazatlanensis
Trimorphodon tau
Boa constrictor.
Leptodactylus melanonotus
Ctenosaura macrolophus
(any of those could turn up on the res or possibly in se. Az. somewhere)
Ambystoma rosaceum - That thing totally crosses the border somewhere in NM.
Phrynosoma ditmarsi - also
Storeria storerioides - possible, it get's close
Who knows, but I think southern and western TExas have been sampled pretty good.
azatrox Posts: 793 Joined: June 9th, 2010, 6:51 am Location: ArizonaRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by azatrox » March 23rd, 2011, 4:33 am
I'm on the lookout for those every time I'm down by the border.
Would be really cool to voucher a wild Boa constrictor north of the border. My understanding is that they're not that far south of it.
Don Becker Posts: 3331 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am Location: Iowa Contact:Re: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Don Becker » March 23rd, 2011, 6:42 am
I didn't know the native range of boa constrictors came that close to the US border. I always assumed they only ranged through the souther half of mexico.
reptilist Posts: 653 Joined: June 8th, 2010, 9:30 am Location: Clifton, ArizonaRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by reptilist » March 23rd, 2011, 8:04 am
I found one in Tucson, at Campbell and Prince. Paul White Posts: 2288 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:52 pm Location: Amarillo, TexasRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Paul White » March 23rd, 2011, 8:42 am
specially if we ever get rains back*grumble grumble grumble*
damn right. I want some moisture. It's been a bone dry winter and spring so far and the streams and ponds are drying up again.
Re: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Correcamino » March 23rd, 2011, 9:05 am
Yeah,
Boa constrictor, Imantodes gemmistratus and I believe Trimorphodon tau have all been found at Benjamin Hill, Sonora. I believe there is a tau record almost right on the border but on the Mexican side somewhere near Cochise County.
And then there are the old records for Psuedoeurycea belli near Prescott.
CC
Re: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by MHollanders » March 23rd, 2011, 2:56 pm
Haven't the borders been herped extensively already? Every year the forum is flooded by posts from SE AZ/SW NM, although I'm not sure if that's where these animals would pop up.
Kent VanSooy Posts: 1100 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:51 am Location: OceansideRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Kent VanSooy » March 23rd, 2011, 3:38 pm
What about Bipes in AZ? I've heard rumors and speculation. Natalie McNear Posts: 1147 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:54 pm Location: Northern coast of CaliforniaRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Natalie McNear » March 23rd, 2011, 3:48 pm
DFRetes wrote: Back to boas, we Bill Garska and I, investigated a report by a forest ranger. He was on horseback and found what sounded like an adult boa. 7ft long, fat, dark brown, etc. This was also in the same area as vinesnakes and the cateyed snake. Which by the way, is directly north in the same mountain ranges as the most northern boa populations.
Sounds like someone likely overestimated the size of a dark adult gophersnake they saw. B. c. imperator of the northern mountains of Sonora are a dwarf variety, even the females only get slightly over 5 feet in length.
Crotalus Posts: 180 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:05 amRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Crotalus » March 23rd, 2011, 5:43 pm
Don't forget to keep an eye out for Phrynosoma ditmarsi in SE AZ/SW NM.
Ambystoma rosaceum makes it somewhat close to the border, but only place that would really make sense would be the Animas.
Edit: oops, saw you included these.
Re: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Crotalus » March 23rd, 2011, 5:57 pm
MHollanders wrote: Haven't the borders been herped extensively already? Every year the forum is flooded by posts from SE AZ/SW NM, although I'm not sure if that's where these animals would pop up.
Yes that region gets visited by herp tourists hunting the same canyons/ranges that people have been hitting for the last 50 years. Very few herpers are hitting new areas, so there are still plenty of gaps in our knowledge of herp distribution by the border. Some of the gaps are because of access (i.e. some of the species DC mentioned have a good chance of showing up on reservation land), just plain laziness (Huachucas for the 109281982917289 time anyone?), and secrecy, but I think a large part of it is that not many herpers are confident enough in their abilities to spend resources looking for stuff without someone posting one from that locale a week earlier.
Crotalus Posts: 180 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:05 amRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Crotalus » March 23rd, 2011, 6:00 pm
Oh, add Coleonyx fasciatus. I think there's a record from near Cananea for them - I doubt it's the "real TDF fasciatus" but its still worth taking a look at any geckos in that area.
Crotalus Posts: 180 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:05 amRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Crotalus » March 23rd, 2011, 7:22 pm
DFRetes wrote: Crotalus, Coleonyx fasciatus Is without question found close to Cananea. I collected three and turned two over to the ASDM. But they somehow failed to do anything with them.
The animals indeed are more, fasciatus. They were within that same 50 miles south of the border number.
I doubt it, but I'd love to see some pics. There are a bunch of "fasciatus" in collections that aren't the same beast as the C. fasciatus popping up in the TDF in southern Sonora and Sinaloa.
The Real Snake Man Posts: 405 Joined: June 12th, 2010, 4:08 pm Location: Pasadena, CA or Mission, TXRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by The Real Snake Man » March 23rd, 2011, 7:23 pm
DFRetes wrote: Also, many years ago, I found a dor cat eyed snake in the same area as vine snakes, etc.
What kind of cat-eyed snake (scientific name), and in Mexico or the western U.S.? Shane_TX Posts: 603 Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:44 pm Location: Upper TX CoastRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Shane_TX » March 23rd, 2011, 7:25 pm
Ambystoma rosaceum - That thing totally crosses the border somewhere in NM.Not familiar with the species other than a quick google, but is it possible that it may rest in a jar labeled as tigrinum?
Crotalus Posts: 180 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:05 amRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Crotalus » March 23rd, 2011, 7:28 pm
Not familiar with the species other than a quick google, but is it possible that it may rest in a jar labeled as tigrinum?
The adults look pretty similar, but they live up high, so it'd almost have to be a "tigrinum" someone picked up in a creek through pine/oak in the animas or peloncillos or something of the sort.
erik loza Posts: 244 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:01 amRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by erik loza » March 23rd, 2011, 8:31 pm
Somewhat off-topic but how feasible is to herp around the border areas in AZ or SoCal, for rosaliae, for example, with so much activity from USBP, illegals, cartel action, etc.?
Just curious because it's been some time since I lived in CA.
Natalie McNear Posts: 1147 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:54 pm Location: Northern coast of CaliforniaRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Natalie McNear » March 23rd, 2011, 8:44 pm
LOTS of border patrol down in the areas of AZ where I was, expect to get pulled over all the time for driving suspiciously at night (road cruising). I also encountered several illegals in the wilderness, none of whom were threatening. It's really the smugglers (of both drugs and humans) you need to watch out for.
gretzkyrh4 Posts: 661 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:17 pm Location: Baton Rouge, LARe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by gretzkyrh4 » March 23rd, 2011, 8:48 pm
Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)
erik loza Posts: 244 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:01 amRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by erik loza » March 23rd, 2011, 8:48 pm
It's all Cartel action here in TX. Maybe the danger aspect does not exist in CA or AZ?
Thanks for responding.
Chris Smith Posts: 2296 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:13 pm Location: MinnesotaRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Chris Smith » March 23rd, 2011, 8:54 pm
gretzkyrh4 wrote: Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)
Well there was just a NEW species of salamander discovered in the U.S. does that count? If not, I don't know.
See: Urspelerpes brucei
gretzkyrh4 Posts: 661 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:17 pm Location: Baton Rouge, LARe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by gretzkyrh4 » March 23rd, 2011, 8:57 pm
Thats true. I forgot about Urspelerpes. Crotalus Posts: 180 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:05 amRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Crotalus » March 23rd, 2011, 9:05 pm
gretzkyrh4 wrote: Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)
Just throwing some out there:
Bogertophis rosaliae in 1984
Coleonyx switaki in 1982 (but I guess there were rumors since the 70s?)
Maybe Xantusia wigginsi? Anyone know when Chionactis palarostris was found in the US?
azatrox Posts: 793 Joined: June 9th, 2010, 6:51 am Location: ArizonaRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by azatrox » March 24th, 2011, 3:14 am
"Haven't the borders been herped extensively already? Every year the forum is flooded by posts from SE AZ/SW NM, although I'm not sure if that's where these animals would pop up.
LOL. I promise to ONLY post pics from SE Az or SW NM here if they contain one of the aforementioned animals. I wouldn't want to contribute to any flooding.
Talusman Posts: 47 Joined: June 30th, 2010, 1:37 pm Location: EarthRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Talusman » March 24th, 2011, 9:46 am
Crotalus Posts: 180 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:05 amRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Crotalus » March 24th, 2011, 9:50 am
klaub x pricei? Where's that from?
Edit: Nevermind, I've seen that snake before. Chiris right?
Brandon La Forest Posts: 244 Joined: July 6th, 2010, 2:23 pm Location: ArizonaRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Brandon La Forest » March 24th, 2011, 10:49 am
Talusman wrote: Wicked snake man! ratsnakehaven Posts: 2272 Joined: June 8th, 2010, 9:08 am Location: Southern ArizonaRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by ratsnakehaven » March 24th, 2011, 11:21 am
Crotalus wrote:gretzkyrh4 wrote: Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)
Just throwing some out there:
Bogertophis rosaliae in 1984
Coleonyx switaki in 1982 (but I guess there were rumors since the 70s?)
Maybe Xantusia wigginsi? Anyone know when Chionactis palarostris was found in the US?
There was a guy working with sharp-tailed snakes in Oregon/California a couple years ago that discovered a new species of sharp-tail. His name alludes me at the senior moment, but I'll come with it later, I'm sure.
Daryl Eby Posts: 963 Joined: June 27th, 2010, 1:27 pm Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas Contact:Re: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Daryl Eby » March 24th, 2011, 11:37 am
ratsnakehaven wrote: There was a guy working with sharp-tailed snakes in Oregon/California a couple years ago that discovered a new species of sharp-tail.
An actual discovery of a new species, or just a split and re-description of a known population? Don Cascabel Posts: 201 Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:44 am Location: Colima, MéxicoRe: Possible Country Records for the US
Post by Don Cascabel » March 24th, 2011, 12:18 pm
I forgot about Coleonyx fasciatus (or possibly Coleonyx variegatus ssp. Nov.), whatever you want to call them and also about Leptodeira splendida ephippiata, which both range pretty close to the border around Cananea. I think the Leptodeira probably need a big Hylid around, so the res would be the most likely spot. Boas, Trimorphodon tau, Phyllodactylus homolepidurus and Ctenosaura all would be on the Res as well, up to the western and southern foothills of the Baboquivaris and Quinlans. Reality is the area between the Organ Pipe National Monument and the Baboquivaris (incuding the Baboquivaris) has not been well explored AT ALL. Only the Ajo Road (too flat and too far north) and the Kitt Peak Rd. (one slope of a huge mountain range).
Rich: I have heard Jerry Feldner mention Imantodes latistratus from around Benjamin Hill too, but I have searched EVERYWHERE and the only records seem to be from s. Sonora. I imagine that species needs Anolis present to survive, so I have a heard time buying them (or Anolis) ranging north of the Hwy. 16 corridor and not having been discovered yet. That being said, I could be wrong. if someone pulled an anole out of some canyon by Cananea somewhere, I would quickly believe Imantodes up there as well (they make it high in c. Mexico, like 2200 m at times).
JJ: I swear to god that there are rosaceum in New Mexico. there are just too many cattle ponds at high elevations in the Animas for them not to be. They are too close. and Ambystoma can and do crawl through drier desert valleys.
gretzkyrh4: I would say the last country records (at least outside of Texas) were probably Bogertophis (which was not widely accepted) and Coleonyx switaki.
Sounds like someone likely overestimated the size of a dark adult gophersnake they saw. B. c. imperator of the northern mountains of Sonora are a dwarf variety, even the females only get slightly over 5 feet in length.
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