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And also it is not against the rules to examine the discard piles. So players should be able to examine the discard piles.

Also, for people who have trouble remembering what has been discarded, being able to examine the discard piles is a helpful way to refresh the memory. We can probably think up hundreds of actions that aren t explicitly disallowed by the rules, do you expect the rules to address all of these in some sort of appendix.

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Sample magic pile

After the advent of the Firelands, you really need to look through the discard pile eg. when using the Devout Blacksmith - that is, you need to look through it _before_ you actually use the Blacksmith (to see if there is something in the discard pile you want). Please implement this feature.

The discard piles should be able to be examined. Besides the fact that several cards and characters use the discard piles there is also the fact that the discard piles show what has been drawn and discarded which is important sometimes for game play purposes. Also, for people who have trouble remembering what has been discarded, being able to examine the discard piles is a helpful way to refresh the memory.

And also it is not against the rules to examine the discard piles. So players should be able to examine the discard piles.

Maybe because its a normal part of the original boardgame? Where do you see that in the 4th edition revised rules as published by Fantasy Flight?

And also it is not against the rules to examine the discard piles. So players should be able to examine the discard piles.

Where do you see that in the 4th edition revised rules as published by Fantasy Flight?

And also it is not against the rules to examine the discard piles. So players should be able to examine the discard piles.

Interesting. What's your source?
My source is the absence of any rule that says that a player cannot look at the discard piles. If you disagree then cite the rule that says a player may not examine the discard piles. Also note that in the board game the discard piles are composed of face-up cards so if a player looks at each discard pile then he, or she, will always be able to see at least the top discarded card.

Where do you see that in the 4th edition revised rules as published by Fantasy Flight?

Interesting. What's your source?

My source is the absence of any rule that says that a player cannot look at the discard piles. That can hardly be a valid argument, can it? By that line of thinking, the absence of a rule saying that I cannot just take cards from the treasure deck whenever I want, would allow me to do it.

You don't expect a game to list all actions that aren't allowed, do you? How would that even be be possible? We can probably think up hundreds of actions that aren't explicitly disallowed by the rules, do you expect the rules to address all of these in some sort of appendix? ;)

I think it's fairly easy: The game describes explicitly which actions are allowed (and which are mandatory) - in the rules and on specific cards. Free browsing of discard piles is not listed anywhere, hence I don't see a good argument for why it would be permitted.

Also note that in the board game the discard piles are composed of face-up cards so if a player looks at each discard pile then he, or she, will always be able to see at least the top discarded card.

looking online at various faqs and discussion boards-no one ever had a definete answer on the discard pile-though general concensus was the pile was always face up but you could not browse through it-but that has always been implied, never stated. However there are a few cards that let you browse through the discard pile and choose-those should always allow it. And-according to an old post by the devs-the log is supposed to show the cards discarded on the turn they are discarded-and it used to do that, it no longer does=that is definetly a bug.
Again-by all i can find-those were the accepted rules by many-but it has never been stated directly at all by any of the developers

That can hardly be a valid argument, can it? By that line of thinking, the absence of a rule saying that I cannot just take cards from the treasure deck whenever I want, would allow me to do it.

You don't expect a game to list all actions that aren't allowed, do you? How would that even be be possible? We can probably think up hundreds of actions that aren't explicitly disallowed by the rules, do you expect the rules to address all of these in some sort of appendix? ;)

I think it's fairly easy: The game describes explicitly which actions are allowed (and which are mandatory) - in the rules and on specific cards. Free browsing of discard piles is not listed anywhere, hence I don't see a good argument for why it would be permitted.

Also note that in the board game the discard piles are composed of face-up cards so if a player looks at each discard pile then he, or she, will always be able to see at least the top discarded card.

That is correct - the topmost card of each discard pile should be visible.
I don't see a good reason why examining the discard piles should not be permitted. Looking at the discard piles is not cheating, as long as the order of the cards that are in the discard piles is not changed during the examination. So why would you oppose someone looking at the discard piles ?

I don't see a good reason why examining the discard piles should not be permitted. Looking at the discard piles is not cheating, as long as the order of the cards that are in the discard piles is not changed during the examination. So why would you oppose someone looking at the discard piles ?

From the people that see peeking into the discard piles as a bad thing, the reasons I usually see cited are a) it wastes time in an already slow game, and b) it removes one of the very few mental "challenges" that Talisman has. (Whether or not peeking is cheating, depends on whether people see it as a task of the game to keep track of things that get discarded. If you play with people who do, then they would definitely accuse you of cheating if you peek into the piles instead of memorizing their contents.)

However, that was never my point. Personally I don't have strong feelings about free discard pile browsing either way. If someone wants to establish it as a house rule and the people on the table agree, I don't see anything wrong with it. My point is simply that it would indeed have to be a house rule, since I see no indication that it would be permitted under the official rules.

But since the logs contain nearly every happening in the game, it would just be a stupid idea if the devs wouldnt add the ability to look at the discard piles.

I mean in a sp game i can just check the logs, and in a mp game it would mean i would lock the game and search the discard pile.

From the people that see peeking into the discard piles as a bad thing, the reasons I usually see cited are a) it wastes time in an already slow game, and b) it removes one of the very few mental "challenges" that Talisman has.

Since many people play this game to relaxe, i dont see a reason to add something that adds a mental challenging, heck this game isnt even translated in all languages (Russian fe), it would just another pain in the a. for the people that cant spend all the time looking at the monitor.

And again it would just slow down the game, when a player always need to check the logs to have a look at the discard piles.

Look, you're doing a discussion here that is not really necessary. We have both seen that there is no indication in the rules that free discard pile browsing would be permitted. I have also explained why the argument "But it's not explicitly forbidden either" doesn't have much clout. My question was a simple "is it permitted, as per the rules?", and the answer to that is a simple "No".

It seems that you are now trying to convince me that this state of affairs is "stupid" and a bad fit for the way how players approach the game. I think it's an oversimplification to try and declare the "one way" how players approach this game, but if that's your opinion, then that's fine by me, I don't see any reason to debate it. If you want to play with a house rule that allows peeking into discard piles, just do so - or try to convince Fantasy Flight that they need to amend the rules. Or try to convince Nomad games that this house rule is common enough that it should be implemented. You're really barking at the wrong tree here.

The rules do not need to permit all things so there is no need for the rules to have to permit a player to simply refresh their memory by examing a discard pile, since as I noted, it is not illegal or cheating anyway. So why would the rules need to permit something that was not even against the rules ?

Now you're going full circle. We already cleared this in post #6. Then you shifted goalposts and went from arguing about "what the rules permit" to arguing about "are the rules good for the players". Now you're going back to a hardly sustainable claim that you already made in post #5, which I already addressed in post #6.

I really don't see much point in discussing this further. If you believe that actions are permitted although there's no indication for that in the rules, then we can come up with hundreds of questionable actions that would be permitted under that premise. That's not a basis for discussion.

There's an action that you apparently want to do, so do it as long as the people on your table are okay with it. That's the beauty of house rules. There's simply no need to pretend that something would be permitted by the official rules when it isn't. I have honestly no idea why you keep discussing this.

Now you're going full circle. We already cleared this in post #6. Then you shifted goalposts and went from arguing about "what the rules permit" to arguing about "are the rules good for the players". Now you're going back to a hardly sustainable claim that you already made in post #5, which I already addressed in post #6.

I really don't see much point in discussing this further. If you believe that actions are permitted although there's no indication for that in the rules, then we can come up with hundreds of questionable actions that would be permitted under that premise. That's not a basis for discussion.

There's an action that you apparently want to do, so do it as long as the people on your table are okay with it. That's the beauty of house rules. There's simply no need to pretend that something would be permitted by the official rules when it isn't. I have honestly no idea why you keep discussing this.

As I pointed out to you in a previous post the action of examining the discard piles does not require permission in the rules. The examination of the discard pile is simply an act of refreshing one's memory as to what has been discarded and since all players in a game have theoretically seen all cards that have been discarded then all the cards in the discard piles have therefore already been theoretically seen by all players in the game so if a player wants to examine the discard pile he, or she, is simply looking at cards that he, or she, has already theoretically seen before. So it is just about refreshing one's memory. So how is that illegal or cheating, which is what you are suggesting when you write that it shouldn't be allowed because the rules do not permit such behaviour ? And after all if a player wanted then they could just keep pausing the game and write down each card that was discarded if they wanted to, or is that not permitted in the rules as well ? But why spend large amounts of time writing down each card discarded when to speed play a person could just examine the discard pile and do the same thing more quickly ?

The rules are clear. Permitted actions are described in the rules and on the cards. Peeking into the discard piles is not stated as a permitted action, hence it is not permitted. I'm sorry, I can't make it any clearer for you.

You are now spending a lot of time bending the rules by making them less clear. You are introducing criteria like "it isn't cheating" (with you being the judge of that), "it's just refreshing one's memory" (nobody denies that, that point is that there's no indication in the game rules that this way of refreshing would be allowed), etc. None of which touches the point that there's no permission for this peeking in the rules.

I'm not even trying to talk you out of this pile-peeking if that's how you enjoy the game more. You're free to apply any house rule you want, including this one. In my opinion you're just wasting a lot of time bending rules so that a house rule that you appreciate might be seen as "official". Why would you need that? Why would that matter?

Feel free to write to Fantasy Flight if you feel so strongly about it. That would be more constructive than running in circles here in this thread.

And again it would just slow down the game, when a player always need to check the logs to have a look at the discard piles.

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