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The new series plans to reopen the cases surrounding the deaths of three of the Fox musical series’ stars, including Monteith, who died at age 31 in 2013 from a drug overdose; Salling, who committed suicide in 2018 after pleading guilty to charges relating to the possession of child pornography; and Naya Rivera, who drowned during a boating trip at age 33 in 2020 saving her young son from drowning.
But the weirdest, darkest of them all is Glee s tie to Michelle Carter , who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the infamous texting-suicide case involving the death of her boyfriend, Conrad Roy. That s the needle they ll need to thread in hosting their podcast, explains Ushkowitz Being a part of something special makes you special is the thesis of Glee.
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Glee’s Kevin McHale and Jenna Ushkowitz Reclaim a Complicated Legacy
They vowed to leave Glee behind after the untimely death of Naya Rivera. But thanks to a reckoning with creator Ryan Murphy, the costars are addressing all “the wild sh-t” on their revealing new podcast.
November 15, 2022 Facebook Email Save Story Wes Santos and Alex Gomez Save this story Save this story“It was nice to just not talk about Glee anymore, to be honest,” Kevin McHale tells Vanity Fair on a recent Zoom with his former costar Jenna Ushkowitz. “It was like, ‘Okay, that chapter, healthily, mentally, is closed. Let’s move on.’”
Feelings about the Fox series that launched their careers as romantically involved show choir kids Artie and Tina are justifiably complicated. For all of the opportunities that starring on a hit show provided—performing for everyone from Oprah to the Obamas, for instance—it also inflicted wounds the stars are reluctant to reopen. Since Glee premiered in 2009, three cast members have died suddenly and prematurely—Cory Monteith of an accidental overdose in 2013, Mark Salling by suicide in 2018 after pleading guilty to possession of child pornography the year prior, and Naya Rivera by drowning in Lake Piru in July of 2020. Others were entangled in dark behind-the-scenes drama, including allegations of domestic violence and on-set racism. With the benefit of hindsight, much of the world considers the once-sunny show about singing teens to be irrefutably “cursed.”
Given their apprehension about the past, it’s a wonder that McHale and Ushkowitz recently found themselves discussing that very topic in a three-hour conversation with Glee creator Ryan Murphy for their new iHeart podcast, And That’s What You Really Missed. It’s a total relaunch of Ushkowitz and McHale’s previous podcast, Showmance, a more straightforward recap of the series, which they halted in 2020 after Rivera’s sudden passing.
“There was a reckoning of sorts with Ryan in 2020 after Naya’s death,” Ushkowitz says. Murphy acknowledged this during his interview on the latest podcast, which ran across two episodes. “It was a moment where all of us were brought back together for a while in grief and we finally all got to say, ‘You know what I really think of you?’” he said, adding, “We had started [Glee] in a tight, loving way, and then as it went on and became bigger…I became almost like an absentee father who shows up at the end of the day and pats the kids. And I had no idea to think that you guys were like, ‘Where did dad go?’”
After their communal catharsis, McHale tells VF, “We were not going to do this again. We were fully committed to letting it go away.” That is, until around March of this year when McHale’s brother-in-law, who works at iHeart, pitched a pivot for the podcast months before it hit Disney+ and Hulu.
Following weeks of deliberation, Ushkowitz and McHale decided to shepherd a warts-and-all exploration of Glee—as told by the actors, musicians, and fans caught in its ripples. “In the past, we did try to keep it overly bright and overly stepping around the things,” McHale said of their podcast’s first iteration, which kicked off with guest Lea Michele. “There’s been so many public things that have happened, for better or for worse. I mean, who would we be kidding to try to tiptoe around?” And yet: “We have no interest in shit-talking people or gossiping in that way. We want people’s real experiences to be focused on and then let that guide the conversation.”
© 20th Century Fox/Everett Collection.A major step toward accomplishing their goal was nabbing Murphy. “Obviously, we wanted to loop in the creator of the damn thing, and have his blessing,” McHale says. But they didn’t know he would offer himself up as their first guest—and that no questions were off-limits.
Murphy, who joked that this was “a psychological experiment” at episode’s start, spoke with unusual candor for a TV mogul, particularly about his failings as a showrunner on Glee. “I had to deal with things that are absolutely batshit crazy out of my knowledge,” he admitted of offscreen discord amongst his young cast. “Like I had no idea about how to handle domestic violence. I had no idea how to handle addiction. I had no idea how to handle unwanted pregnancies…so I was in the role of the boss, but also a friend and actually loving everyone.”
Most Popular Done Deal: Here Is What’s in the New WGA Contract and What It Means By Natalie Jarvey The Strange but True Story of the Pioneer Woman’s Link to Killers of the Flower Moon By Eve Batey Nobody Is Buying the Fanciest LA Real Estate By Emily Jane FoxSays McHale to VF, “I was a little shocked because someone in his position doesn’t have to be doing that. You see, regardless of how someone is doing success-wise, career-wise, that this experience had such a profound effect on all of us.” He adds, “I do think having Ryan first and having such a blunt conversation with him, an emotionally available conversation, has set a precedent in a way. It has reframed how we’ve thought about structuring the show.”
As Murphy says, all involved with the show have had to decipher the difference between “what Glee did to us and for us.” That’s the needle they’ll need to thread in hosting their podcast, explains Ushkowitz: “‘Being a part of something special makes you special’ is the thesis of Glee. ‘What Glee did to us and for us’ is the basis of our podcast now.” She continues, “Ryan has set the tone in such an open and authentic way that we are able to go forward and not sugarcoat it. There’s a really exciting vibe to not have to dance around things or walk on eggshells.”
To host a podcast about Glee, one has to acknowledge the discourse that surrounds it. These days, that largely lives on TikTok, where the hashtag #GleeTok has more than 260 million views. Users often unpack cringeworthy plot points and imagine what covers of recent hits would sound like in the characters’ voices. Ushkowitz says she relies on McHale for any social media stalking. “I also have a few friends who report back to me, not that I ask them to,” McHale laughs. “Luckily, because I’m not trying to mess with my TikTok algorithm. I don’t want to be on GleeTok.”
He added, “Things have gotten so out of hand. Conspiracies, and how attached people feel to us as real people, and the things they say are really wild. You sort of have to laugh at it. We have to talk about some of the wild shit because it is baffling to us, and people really believe these things.”
As for any specific rumors they’d like to clear up? To start, McHale says no, none of the cast is involved in an upcoming Discovery+ documentary about the show’s controversies. Yes, they’ve been exhaustively asked and (sort of) answered whether they’re seeing Michele in Broadway’s Funny Girl. And—“We’re definitely going to address Lea not being able to read for sure,” Ushkowitz deadpans.
Adds McHale, “Our intention wasn’t necessarily to push back on those things because people are going to troll, it doesn’t matter, but it is a nice benefit. I think [the podcast] will naturally dispel some of the long-held and misguided opinions and assumptions about the show.”
Since Glee took its final bow in 2015, its legacy has cropped up in strange and mystifying ways—such as a punch line in this year’s Bros and a lyric in Olivia Rodrigo’s hit single “Deja Vu.” “That one’s also just a weird connection for other reasons as well,” McHale says. “The person who it’s about I’m friends with and he was like, ‘Oh, my God, I was watching Glee. She’s never even seen Glee.’”
But “the weirdest, darkest” of them all is Glee’s tie to Michelle Carter, who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the infamous texting-suicide case involving the death of her boyfriend, Conrad Roy. Carter was so obsessed with the show that she would text exact lines of dialogue to Roy and pass them off as her own. The true-crime tale was explored in this year’s The Girl From Plainville on Hulu, 2019’s HBO documentary I Love You, Now Die: The Commonwealth v. Michelle Carter, and a 2018 Lifetime movie, Conrad & Michelle: If Words Could Kill, that coincidentally starred McHale’s real-life partner, Austin P. McKenzie. “Seeing that story was already crazy, in the documentary,” Ushkowitz says. “Then to hear that they were making a scripted show on it, I was like, ‘I don’t think I can do that.’ That one was really wonky in my brain.”
Rivera’s father appears in the trailer, saying the success of the show as the “top of the mountain” for his daughter. Seconds later, he is shown looking out over LakePiru in California, where Naya died.
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