The Evolution of Magic in 'Charmed: Something Wicca This Way Comes

"Charmed: Something Wicca This Way Comes" is the pilot episode of the popular television series Charmed, which aired on October 7, 1998. The episode introduces the three Halliwell sisters: Prue, Piper, and Phoebe, who discover that they are witches with unique powers. The episode begins with Phoebe returning to her childhood home in San Francisco after residing in New York. She stumbles upon the mystical Book of Shadows in the attic and recites a spell, accidentally activating the sisters' dormant magical abilities. This event triggers a chain of events that kick-start the sisters' journey into their witch destiny. As Prue, Piper, and Phoebe explore their newfound powers, they also face a new threat in the form of a warlock named Jeremy Burns.

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As Prue, Piper, and Phoebe explore their newfound powers, they also face a new threat in the form of a warlock named Jeremy Burns. Jeremy, who is obsessed with the sisters and their powers, seeks to harness their magical abilities for his own gain. The sisters must navigate their individual struggles and work together to fend off Jeremy's advances.

Dragon Form and Speaking or Casting Spells

"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)"

"While in this form, you gain the dragon trait. You have hands in this battle form and can take manipulate actions."

Is it intended that you can't speak or cast spells while in Dragon Form, despite Dragons being able to do both?

How would you rule it if you were a GM (as per the clause in the polymorph section)?

I'd say it falls under the "If there's doubt" clause. As GM I'd rule that you could absolutely talk and cast spells in dragon form.

I'm also inclined toward being able to cast spells in that form. It feels really counter-intuitive that someone who is good at magic, transforming into a creature who is famed for performing magic, suddenly . couldn't do magic.

Though on that subject, something else popped up at me about Dragon Form. The Dragon Disciple feat Shape of the Dragon says,

You've discovered how to transform yourself into a dragon. Once per day, you can cast 7th-level dragon form as an innate arcane spell, transforming into your chosen type of dragon. The spell automatically heightens to 8th level if you're 16th level and 9th level if you're 18th level. Any time you score a critical hit with an unarmed Strike gained from dragon form, you recharge the spell's breath weapon immediately.

But, no matter where I look, I can't find a 9th-level version of Dragon Form. Sup with that? Is it just harder to dispel, or did someone between CRB and APG slip?

The issue is that the form is meant to turn you from a caster to a melee capable character, hence battle form. Being able to do both has always been an end game druid type ability.

Imagine taking perfect form control to be a Dragon all the time, but your basically a mute dragon. Good luck fitting in with other dragons.

My interpretation is that you definitely can't cast spells.

Not speaking doesn't look to be technically allowed either, but I think that's too harsh.

my question would be what causes you to lose your spell-casting?

rules aside you need a little bit of common sense when ruling on stuff

you don't become unable to cast spells if you shape-shift into a elf or an orc

you don't become unable to cast spells if you maker yourself larger with a spell

you don't become unable to cast spells if you get claws or if you turn your hands into tentacles

spells that change the shape of your mouth don't make you lose spell casting etc.

is there any spell that turns you into a speaking creature but takes away your ability to speak?

so what would cause you to lose spells?

my question would be what causes you to lose your spell-casting?

rules aside you need a little bit of common sense when ruling on stuff

you don't become unable to cast spells if you shape-shift into a elf or an orc

you don't become unable to cast spells if you maker yourself larger with a spell

you don't become unable to cast spells if you get claws or if you turn your hands into tentacles

spells that change the shape of your mouth don't make you lose spell casting etc.

is there any spell that turns you into a speaking creature but takes away your ability to speak?

so what would cause you to lose spells?

But the spells being talked about explicitly change you into a 'battle form'. Something that those other spells (enlarge, whatever alter self is called now, etc.) do not. And battle forms are what have the no casting restriction. So unfortunately, all of your common sense examples are actually allowed by the rules while casting (most spells) in dragon form is not (at least not as written).

I wonder how important the restriction is. Does being able to cast while in a form mean that much? I mean, you're using up rounds of you 1 minute transformation to do things you could in your normal form.

Battle forms are already never as good as actual melee characters, so it doesn't seem like it makes a huge difference if they can cast if the creature they've turned into could cast.

Look, the rules are clear and explicit: no casting in Battle Form, and Dragon Form gives you a Battle Form. Therefore, no casting.

This is not a mistake on Paizo part, as it's quite consistent with the balance and approach to magic they've taken in this edition. Don't forget Wizards can use Dragon Form, and if you allowed them casting while in it, where would the game balance be?

Anyway. I suggest talk to your DM, but if you're asking rules-wise, it's clear. No casting.

Even with no casting, I would still want the rules to read the dragon form can let your speak.

Agreed. They say no casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands and can't activate any items

The speaking restriction is not required, the others are. I don't enforce it as a GM.

As others have said, RAW, the rules are clear. As for overruling the RAW, to those who think spell casting in dragon form would break the game, consider the following:

2. Because of (1), for melee combat, you'll need to take the option to use your own unarmed attack modifier. This entails heavy investment into strength or dexterity and specific archetype choices to make your (true form) unarmed attack modifier high.

3. However, if you invest heavily into strength, you can actually reach a much higher average damage roll by staying in your true form and using a melee weapon (which, of course, lets you cast spells anyways).

The other advantages (e.g. fly speed) can be approximated in a character's true form with the right feats and spells.

Short version: Making dragon form melee-viable near level 20 requires significant investment, and with that investment, a caster may be better at melee combat in their true form anyways.

Returning to the question of GM ruling, the power level of casting spells in dragon form depends on the PC's level. Specifically, have they passed the point where dragon form's default attack modifier is close to a martial character's attack modifier? A safe approach could be to let the player cast spells in dragon form only if it's heightened to a 10th level. You could explain this as the 6th and 8th level versions of the spell being imperfect, but the 10th level version corrected these imperfections.

Short version: Making dragon form melee-viable near level 20 requires significant investment, and with that investment, a caster may be better at melee combat in their true form anyways.

Returning to the question of GM ruling, the power level of casting spells in dragon form depends on the PC's level. Specifically, have they passed the point where dragon form's default attack modifier is close to a martial character's attack modifier? A safe approach could be to let the player cast spells in dragon form only if it's heightened to a 10th level. You could explain this as the 6th and 8th level versions of the spell being imperfect, but the 10th level version corrected these imperfections.

I don't think it is reasonable to consider just dragon form. Each wild shape form only scales within an obvious range so you have to consider a range of forms. At a certain level you should not be using Dragon form anymore.

Even though you can't cast spells in wild shape you can precast spells like longstrinder for instance. So your magic is not completely irrelevant.

If you think that you can do more significantly more damage in melee as a druid than in some of your appropriate leveled battle forms, then your interpretation of the wildshape rules is too bad to be true.

Battleform doesn't allow you to cast unless itclearly says it.

Trying to extrapolate it from the vague description is forcing things ( leaving apart how unbalanced would be compared to any other battleform ).

I mean, if we stick with the idea that every single time paizo doesn't explicitly say a thing it's a chance to go with with "reading the text it seems vague, so it can be both", we'll end up doing this over and over almost on every subject.

Battleform doesn't allow you to cast unless itclearly says it.

Trying to extrapolate it from the vague description is forcing things ( leaving apart how unbalanced would be compared to any other battleform ).

I mean, if we stick with the idea that every single time paizo doesn't explicitly say a thing it's a chance to go with with "reading the text it seems vague, so it can be both", we'll end up doing this over and over almost on every subject.

I agree wholeheartedly. Spellcasting while Xshaped is DISallowed unless the specific form you've chosen outlines that it is permitted.

Question:

Is it intended that you can't speak or cast spells while in Dragon Form, despite Dragons being able to do both?

How would you rule it if you were a GM (as per the clause in the polymorph section)?

my question would be what causes you to lose your spell-casting?

rules aside you need a little bit of common sense when ruling on stuff

Sorry that you asked a legitimate question about reasoning and got the usual slew of "because the rules say so" from folks that have lost their curiosity about why rules are in place.

You can't cast spells in dragon form because combat is supposed to be about options; choosing what's best for the situation. If you could perform as your normal caster self while in your dragon form, you'd be at a flat disadvantage any time you're NOT in dragon form. The game tries to avoid that situation. Any time you have a spell that gives you a bonus for a period of time with no disadvantage, generally the bonus is rather small to encourage you to keep your options open. Dragon Form is intended to give you a temporary trade-off.

As for the lore behind why you can't speak, the way we rule it is that dragons have a LONG youth to learn to speak clearly with such an outrageous mouth design. For a mortal that just picked up the form, it's like trying to talk through two sets of plastic vampire teeth. "Risha reereh kark ta sheek araark kashaw!"

Sorry that you asked a legitimate question about reasoning and got the usual slew of "because the rules say so" from folks that have lost their curiosity about why rules are in place.

I dunno, seems like Waterslethe, NemoNoName, and Blackmill were all giving answers that were about the balance consideration (and, I'd note, 3 years ago).

Short version: Making dragon form melee-viable near level 20 requires significant investment, and with that investment, a caster may be better at melee combat in their true form anyways.

Returning to the question of GM ruling, the power level of casting spells in dragon form depends on the PC's level. Specifically, have they passed the point where dragon form's default attack modifier is close to a martial character's attack modifier? A safe approach could be to let the player cast spells in dragon form only if it's heightened to a 10th level. You could explain this as the 6th and 8th level versions of the spell being imperfect, but the 10th level version corrected these imperfections.

I don't think it is reasonable to consider just dragon form. Each wild shape form only scales within an obvious range so you have to consider a range of forms. At a certain level you should not be using Dragon form anymore.

Even though you can't cast spells in wild shape you can precast spells like longstrinder for instance. So your magic is not completely irrelevant.

If you think that you can do more significantly more damage in melee as a druid than in some of your appropriate leveled battle forms, then your interpretation of the wildshape rules is too bad to be true.

and here we got two problems

1. the battle form is not that good in terms of attack avlue
2. it still takes away options to fight
optional 3. I think battle forms should scale all the range of levels
I certainly wouldnt mind higher forms being stronger, but having battleform spells being effective at 4 levels out of 20 is kinda sad
why do I have to turn in a kaiju if I would prefer to be a gorilla or a dinosaur? *pout*

Sorry that you asked a legitimate question about reasoning and got the usual slew of "because the rules say so" from folks that have lost their curiosity about why rules are in place.

Every response in a thread is not a complete response to the original question. The question was how would you rule it. The response inculded a discussion of the actual rules. I also said how I would rule differently.

This particular part of the rules is crystal clear but odd. So people do this differently.
Please don't try to assign motives to people. Be generous in your assumptions about other people. These are brief statements we make. They are often misinterpreted.

*Insert Patrick and Manta Ray meme*

So a Sorcerer casts spells right?

A dragon can cast spells?

So a sorcerer that turns into a dragon can cast spells?

Point is an aspiring draconic sorcerer losing the ability to cast spells when attaining their dragon form is just blatantly stupid RAW or not and I'd definitely never run it that way. I'd understand in 5e where a polymorph effect gave you an entire character's worth of hp you had to knock out before touching the squishy caster but as it stands you get a laughable amount of temp hp and a soso melee attack set. Casting in this form is far from OP.

The Battelform rules are insainly poorly written and right out broken(in a bad way) with alot of holes, and i realy hope they look them over in the Remaster.

I would rule it as both intended and RAW : Manipulate OK, speaking or casting = No.

you get a laughable amount of temp hp and a soso melee attack set. Casting in this form is far from OP.

Well, lets see. You get

1) A speed of 40 and a fly speed of 100
2) Resistance 10 against the energy of your choice (essentially)
3) Darkvision and imprecise scent
4) A quite decent breath weapon
5) A fairly decent (not great but definitely better than so-so) melee attack with reach
6) Some temp hit points
7) Often some other cool ability that you get to pick when you need it (eg, swim speed, burrow speed, climb speed, ability to see through smoke, etc).

All for the low cost of either a spell slot OR a focus spell together with some quite affordable class feats.

I've played a druid who used dragon form a lot and it is quite useful and powerful withOUT being able to cast spells. It is perfectly good as it is. Being able to cast spells would definitely have made it overpowered. Probably not game breakingly over powered but definitely overpowered.

Polymorph:

"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)"

Dragon Form:

"While in this form, you gain the dragon trait. You have hands in this battle form and can take manipulate actions."

Question:

Is it intended that you can't speak or cast spells while in Dragon Form, despite Dragons being able to do both?

How would you rule it if you were a GM (as per the clause in the polymorph section)?

RAW it's a now. However, I find it telling that this "unless otherwise noted" isn't noted anywhere, in any spell that grant a battle form, to the point where I think that paizo probably forgot that part of the trait. Dragons not being able to talk is already a bit silly, but an angel, a demon, a fae or a literal avatar of cayden cailean being mute by default is just dumb.

I'd authorise it, dragon casting spell is a big part of what make a dragon a dragon after, instead of just another big flying monster.

Polymorph:

"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)"

Dragon Form:

"While in this form, you gain the dragon trait. You have hands in this battle form and can take manipulate actions."

Question:

Is it intended that you can't speak or cast spells while in Dragon Form, despite Dragons being able to do both?

How would you rule it if you were a GM (as per the clause in the polymorph section)?

RAW it's a now. However, I find it telling that this "unless otherwise noted" isn't noted anywhere, in any spell that grant a battle form, to the point where I think that paizo probably forgot that part of the trait. Dragons not being able to talk is already a bit silly, but an angel, a demon, a fae or a literal avatar of cayden cailean being mute by default is just dumb.

I'd authorise it, dragon casting spell is a big part of what make a dragon a dragon after, instead of just another big flying monster.

Actually, Dragon Form does note it since it explicitly allows using Manipulate actions.

Also the Kitsune feat Rampaging Form explicitly states that you can cast Produce Flame.

Actually, Dragon Form does note it since it explicitly allows using Manipulate actions.

I was talking specifically about the "prevent you from speaking" part. Some forms allow manipulate actions and stipulate that you have hands. Some allow you to cast spells. None say that you can speak, even those that obviously should.

No feat allow you to speak in battle form either as far as I can recall, and I honestly can't recall any other material from PF2 that even mention the fact that battle form can't talk apart from the polymorph trait, which is what make me think that paizo might have forgotten it themselves.

I understand better now. Thanks.

I guess that is the time when having a talking familiar becomes extremely useful.

The Shapespeak Mask lets you speak (but you still can't cast spells) while polymorphed into the form of an animal - but only an animal, which is weird. Did they think the higher level forms could already speak? Doesn't look like they updated that when they included it in Treasure Vault.

The Shapespeak Mask lets you speak (but you still can't cast spells) while polymorphed into the form of an animal - but only an animal, which is weird. Did they think the higher level forms could already speak? Doesn't look like they updated that when they included it in Treasure Vault.

I would definitely allow this use for other forms.

you get a laughable amount of temp hp and a soso melee attack set. Casting in this form is far from OP.

Well, lets see. You get

1) A speed of 40 and a fly speed of 100
2) Resistance 10 against the energy of your choice (essentially)
3) Darkvision and imprecise scent
4) A quite decent breath weapon
5) A fairly decent (not great but definitely better than so-so) melee attack with reach
6) Some temp hit points
7) Often some other cool ability that you get to pick when you need it (eg, swim speed, burrow speed, climb speed, ability to see through smoke, etc).

All for the low cost of either a spell slot OR a focus spell together with some quite affordable class feats.

I've played a druid who used dragon form a lot and it is quite useful and powerful withOUT being able to cast spells. It is perfectly good as it is. Being able to cast spells would definitely have made it overpowered. Probably not game breakingly over powered but definitely overpowered.

1: We are level 11 now, flight has been becoming a thing for far longer than the 1 min in dragonform be it the spell, ancestries, or otherwise

2: Given my prompt was a draconic sorcerer you'd be limited to the type you chose though again level 11 you've had means to get resistance to things long before be it magic, items, ancestries, etc
3: The former is easily done better by a 2 level spell as well as again easily obtained long before level 11 be it ancestry, feats, items, etc
4: The only contention point and it is a decent blasting option. every other round on average and again only in the one element if a draconic sorcer. You know what else are decent blasting options every round, your spells 6th and lower.
5:Again so-so melee that while on par to hit of a barbarian or the like, still less than fighter but who isn't you only get a measly +6 to damage so anything worth its salt will have more riders to their attacks than the measly 6.
6:Once again a weak amount of temp hp, comparable to what barb has had since level 1. On that note you can have a dragon instinct barb that could cast spells with the proper feat or even do a lot of what this form does, all the time every rage.
7:Really skill feats or in the case of barbarian a single class feat? This is a 6th level spell you are level 11 at this point and that's a major boon?

So no I don't agree that spellcasting would in anyway make this form OP as it is lacking in nearly every way and taken only because it's given or because it is thematically appropriate to the character.

1: We are level 11 now, flight has been becoming a thing for far longer than the 1 min in dragonform be it the spell, ancestries, or otherwise

2: Given my prompt was a draconic sorcerer you'd be limited to the type you chose though again level 11 you've had means to get resistance to things long before be it magic, items, ancestries, etc
3: The former is easily done better by a 2 level spell as well as again easily obtained long before level 11 be it ancestry, feats, items, etc
4: The only contention point and it is a decent blasting option. every other round on average and again only in the one element if a draconic sorcer. You know what else are decent blasting options every round, your spells 6th and lower.
5:Again so-so melee that while on par to hit of a barbarian or the like, still less than fighter but who isn't you only get a measly +6 to damage so anything worth its salt will have more riders to their attacks than the measly 6.
6:Once again a weak amount of temp hp, comparable to what barb has had since level 1. On that note you can have a dragon instinct barb that could cast spells with the proper feat or even do a lot of what this form does, all the time every rage.
7:Really skill feats or in the case of barbarian a single class feat? This is a 6th level spell you are level 11 at this point and that's a major boon?

1: Fly gives flight for 2 actions and a speed of. The answer is not 100 ft in case you were curious. Fly, or other similar flight spells, also don't give you an AC that is comparable to a martial. Also doesn't give you melee attacks with a bonus to attacks comparable to a martial. Also doesn't give you damage with the attacks it doesn't give you comparable to a martial.
2: So..how many actions before you can fly, have resistance, get melee attacks, have a decent aoe, get a decent AC. oh, and how many spell slots did you use up?
3: refer back to 2
4: refer back to 2
5: If you want to play a martial, then play a martial
6: If you want to play a barbarian, then play a barbarian
7: How many wizards are rocking Athletics? How many martials have swim speeds? Burrow speeds?

Your counters just sound silly to me given that you can get all of the things dragon form can give you for. 2 actions. Only 2 actions!

Some Stats comparison at level 11
. DF..vs..avg martial
AC 29 vs 29
Attk +22 vs +22
Dmg 3d10+6 vs 2d10+2d6+7
HP low vs high
Athletics +23 vs +23

1: We are level 11 now, flight has been becoming a thing for far longer than the 1 min in dragonform be it the spell, ancestries, or otherwise

2: Given my prompt was a draconic sorcerer you'd be limited to the type you chose though again level 11 you've had means to get resistance to things long before be it magic, items, ancestries, etc
3: The former is easily done better by a 2 level spell as well as again easily obtained long before level 11 be it ancestry, feats, items, etc
4: The only contention point and it is a decent blasting option. every other round on average and again only in the one element if a draconic sorcer. You know what else are decent blasting options every round, your spells 6th and lower.
5:Again so-so melee that while on par to hit of a barbarian or the like, still less than fighter but who isn't you only get a measly +6 to damage so anything worth its salt will have more riders to their attacks than the measly 6.
6:Once again a weak amount of temp hp, comparable to what barb has had since level 1. On that note you can have a dragon instinct barb that could cast spells with the proper feat or even do a lot of what this form does, all the time every rage.
7:Really skill feats or in the case of barbarian a single class feat? This is a 6th level spell you are level 11 at this point and that's a major boon?

1: Fly gives flight for 2 actions and a speed of. The answer is not 100 ft in case you were curious. Fly, or other similar flight spells, also don't give you an AC that is comparable to a martial. Also doesn't give you melee attacks with a bonus to attacks comparable to a martial. Also doesn't give you damage with the attacks it doesn't give you comparable to a martial.
2: So..how many actions before you can fly, have resistance, get melee attacks, have a decent aoe, get a decent AC. oh, and how many spell slots did you use up?
3: refer back to 2
4: refer back to 2
5: If you want to play a martial, then play a martial
6: If.

1: 5m vs 1m, not to mention again the various ancestries that come online at level 7. It is useful but not unique.

2: You do not have weapon specialization or any other riders to your attacks that all martials get, not to mention the many tactical options. Also your AC is set martials have stances, shields, maneuvers etc to boost there's and lower the enemy's AC. One resistance and a locked one at that isn't what I'd call good. If you are using acid damage odds are the thing you are fighting is not attacking you with it as well.
3: See point 2
4: See point 2
5: If I become a dragon I want to have the capacity of a dragon, not some gimped version of it that can't speak for some moronic reason.
6: Point of comparison that casting while having stats comparable to dragon form is already possible and you can even talk while doing so.
7: Again skill feats anyone can access, ancestries, magic items, and barbarian has a feat that gives them all of them while raging at what level 4. Sure love getting a weaker version of a level 4 feat with my level 6 spell to become a dragon.

The Battelform rules are insainly poorly written and right out broken(in a bad way) with alot of holes, and i realy hope they look them over in the Remaster.

Throughout the episode, the sisters grapple with their evolving identities as witches. Prue, the eldest sister, struggles with controlling her telekinetic powers and balancing her personal and work life. Piper, the middle sister, discovers her ability to freeze time and must come to terms with her new reality. Phoebe, the youngest sister, embraces her newfound clairvoyant abilities and begins to uncover secrets about their family's magical lineage. "Something Wicca This Way Comes" sets the stage for the rest of the series, establishing the bond between the sisters and their commitment to protecting innocents from supernatural threats. It introduces viewers to the magical world of Charmed, complete with demons, warlocks, and the constant battle between good and evil. The episode also touches on themes of sisterhood, empowerment, and destiny. The sisters are initially reluctant to accept their witch status but ultimately realize the significance of their powers and the responsibility that comes with it. They must learn to trust and support each other, embracing their unique strengths to combat the forces of darkness. Overall, "Charmed: Something Wicca This Way Comes" lays the foundation for the captivating, magical world of Charmed and introduces viewers to the journey of the Halliwell sisters as they navigate their destiny as the Charmed Ones..

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1. Sarah - 2/5 stars - I was really excited to start watching "Charmed" since I'm a big fan of supernatural shows, but the pilot episode, "Something Wicca This Way Comes," left me disappointed. The storyline felt rushed, and the acting was quite mediocre. The special effects were also very outdated, making it difficult for me to immerse myself in the world of the show. Overall, I found the episode to be lacking in substance and failed to captivate me.

2. Mark - 1/5 stars - "Charmed" has been highly recommended to me by many people, so I decided to give it a try. Unfortunately, the pilot episode, "Something Wicca This Way Comes," was a complete letdown. The plot felt cliché and predictable, lacking any originality. The acting was stiff and unconvincing, making it hard for me to connect with the characters. Additionally, the dialogue was cheesy and cringe-worthy. I am reluctant to continue watching the series after such a lackluster start.

3. Amanda - 2/5 stars - I had heard great things about "Charmed," but the first episode, "Something Wicca This Way Comes," didn't live up to the hype for me. The writing felt weak, and the pacing was off, making it difficult for me to stay engaged. The characters lacked depth, and their actions often felt forced or unrealistic. I was hoping for a more compelling introduction to the series, but sadly, this episode fell short of my expectations. I'm willing to give it another chance, but this episode didn't leave me eager for more.

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