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The Wheel of Time - Season Two | Enter Seanchan [TAG BOOK SPOILERS]

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onpoint

Neon Deity Games

Right but again - she doesn’t know *anything* here. She doesn’t know who the Seanchan are, she doesn’t know Rand’s being held by them on the tower. She literally just nukes a fleet on the off-chance they are against him - she herself isn’t sure. So there’s no way she is getting round the paths because of her firm beliefs because she doesn’t have any at this point!

Also it can’t be what Ishamael did to her. That just restrained her channeling abilities with a tied off shield. Also we know that doesn’t remove the oath rod oaths and Moraine is still bound to them because of what happened at the Gate in the previous episode - Suanne forces her to close the gate because of the oath she swore.

Honestly just think they wanted a big magical set piece and didn’t think about the oaths.

(Also, did we ever see what became of the yellow whose warded died? The one who was sheltering Nynaeve and Egwene?£

FizzMino

Let's just chalk it up to "it's a TV show and the writers may have forgot to take that into account when making their cool TV show scene"

Cuz any way you twist it, the fact Moraine gets away with murdering thousands of people on some ships from 5 miles away is a breaking of the 3 oaths no matter how you look at it. At least how they work in the books. The show is either 1. Playing loose with the rules or 2. Moraine isn't bound to them after being shielded or whatever happened to her with Ishy. (again, this situation is different from the books so we have no context)

New002

Yeah I can't totally recall but I figured this was the case, cause why wouldn't she be able to see them. I'd have to rewatch the scene though.

9wilds

FizzMino

Being able to see them shielding someone does not qualify or meet the requirements to use the one power against them as a weapon.

Especially when she has no idea who they are shielding or why.

Maledict

For all she knew, it was a group of Aes Sedai shielding Ishamael. It does very clearly break the oaths, but Ho hum.

demosthenes

H.Cornerstone

Right but again - she doesn’t know *anything* here. She doesn’t know who the Seanchan are, she doesn’t know Rand’s being held by them on the tower. She literally just nukes a fleet on the off-chance they are against him - she herself isn’t sure. So there’s no way she is getting round the paths because of her firm beliefs because she doesn’t have any at this point!

Also it can’t be what Ishamael did to her. That just restrained her channeling abilities with a tied off shield. Also we know that doesn’t remove the oath rod oaths and Moraine is still bound to them because of what happened at the Gate in the previous episode - Suanne forces her to close the gate because of the oath she swore.

Honestly just think they wanted a big magical set piece and didn’t think about the oaths.

(Also, did we ever see what became of the yellow whose warded died? The one who was sheltering Nynaeve and Egwene?£

We did not, I am guessing that will be a future season (The Yellow Ajah).

And I am not entire sure how the oaths work, I am guessing as long as she believes she or Rand is in Danger that is all that matters, but in general there are a lot of loopholes in the oaths.

But at the end of the day, I am cool just chalking it up to "It looks cool on TV."

Complicated

There's inconsistencies in the books regarding this. At various times the oath is said to exclude the use of the Power against Shadowspawn (Fades and Trollocs) and sometimes Darkfriends are excluded in the oath as well. Sometimes defense of other sisters is included and sometimes not. Moiraine reasonably believed the invading army with strange ships holding Falme where the Forsaken are plotting and likely shielding Rand were Darkfriends. They could have made it clearer to be sure.

But also in the books that Oath is kind of glossed over the moment Aes Sedai are facing channelers unbound by the same Oath since you can die in an instant if you're unable to channel when facing other channelers. What Aes Sedai wouldn't feel in danger within a few miles of one of the Forsaken when they know enough to know that they have no idea what the limits of their power are?

There's like one moment in a later book where a couple Aes Sedai wade into a battle claiming they needed to in order to feel vulnerable, but it doesn't even make sense because they're doing that while other Aes Sedai are already in danger.

OhSatan

Shiloh

The show is bending the rules. Which sucks because one of my favorite moments from the books about the rules:

Is when Mat is begging that Aes Sedai to help them as they're being overrun, and she can't until they're almost overrrun. Then she mentions she now officially feels endangered and starts helping. Like, so many people have to die before she could help.

duxstar

So A couple of things, I just binge watched the second season, and oh boy I was way off on almost everything as far as my memory goes

Question about Mat's storyline

Is the "bald seanchan princess that works with Ishmael supposed to be the princess that he marrys later on in the series ?Was it implied in the books that she was a Darkfriend ? The other question I have is regarding Perrin; does Perrin meet the Aiel that early in the series ? I feel like Im mixing up later storylines with stuff that was earlier; i could have SWORN up and down the Seanchan didn't make an appearance in the books until way later
Also In the books why did I imagine that Rand was actually Lightning in the sky when fighting Ishmael; and it was like a battle of the heavens type deal.

What's funniest is I went back and read a chapter summary of the 2nd book and I was like oh that is kind of how it went but got my memory is so bad when it comes to what happens to the characters in these books.

Maledict

So A couple of things, I just binge watched the second season, and oh boy I was way off on almost everything as far as my memory goes

Question about Mat's storyline

Is the "bald seanchan princess that works with Ishmael supposed to be the princess that he marrys later on in the series ?Was it implied in the books that she was a Darkfriend ? The other question I have is regarding Perrin; does Perrin meet the Aiel that early in the series ? I feel like Im mixing up later storylines with stuff that was earlier; i could have SWORN up and down the Seanchan didn't make an appearance in the books until way later
Also In the books why did I imagine that Rand was actually Lightning in the sky when fighting Ishmael; and it was like a battle of the heavens type deal.

What's funniest is I went back and read a chapter summary of the 2nd book and I was like oh that is kind of how it went but got my memory is so bad when it comes to what happens to the characters in these books.

onpoint

Neon Deity Games

So A couple of things, I just binge watched the second season, and oh boy I was way off on almost everything as far as my memory goes

Question about Mat's storyline

Is the "bald seanchan princess that works with Ishmael supposed to be the princess that he marrys later on in the series ?Was it implied in the books that she was a Darkfriend ? The other question I have is regarding Perrin; does Perrin meet the Aiel that early in the series ? I feel like Im mixing up later storylines with stuff that was earlier; i could have SWORN up and down the Seanchan didn't make an appearance in the books until way later
Also In the books why did I imagine that Rand was actually Lightning in the sky when fighting Ishmael; and it was like a battle of the heavens type deal.

What's funniest is I went back and read a chapter summary of the 2nd book and I was like oh that is kind of how it went but got my memory is so bad when it comes to what happens to the characters in these books.

H.Cornerstone

This is correct.

The show is bending the rules. Which sucks because one of my favorite moments from the books about the rules:

Is when Mat is begging that Aes Sedai to help them as they're being overrun, and she can't until they're almost overrrun. Then she mentions she now officially feels endangered and starts helping. Like, so many people have to die before she could help.

I always read this as the Aes Sedai kind of messing with Mat because they are Aes Sedai. And Mat is Mat.

demosthenes

The woman we see this season is High Lady Suroth. We have not met any other Blood or Imperial Family members outside of Turak (blood).

9wilds

So A couple of things, I just binge watched the second season, and oh boy I was way off on almost everything as far as my memory goes

Question about Mat's storyline

Is the "bald seanchan princess that works with Ishmael supposed to be the princess that he marrys later on in the series ?Was it implied in the books that she was a Darkfriend ? The other question I have is regarding Perrin; does Perrin meet the Aiel that early in the series ? I feel like Im mixing up later storylines with stuff that was earlier; i could have SWORN up and down the Seanchan didn't make an appearance in the books until way later
Also In the books why did I imagine that Rand was actually Lightning in the sky when fighting Ishmael; and it was like a battle of the heavens type deal.

What's funniest is I went back and read a chapter summary of the 2nd book and I was like oh that is kind of how it went but got my memory is so bad when it comes to what happens to the characters in these books.

In the books, Rand fights Ishmael in Tel'aran'riod (presumably) and for whatever reason it can just be seen in the sky. It was a battle in the heavens type deal, not what was done in the show.

Perrin meets the Aiel, but it wasn't Aviendha, it was Gaul. It was in book 3. Gaul might be written out or perhaps he'll just be introduced later.

anamika

Daniel Greene, Dusty Wheel and Brando Sando watch along. I will say you can definitely tell BS Is an English major because he reads way too much into everything.

The Wheel of Time S2 Finale: LIVE 1st Watch & React with Brandon Sanderson & Daniel Greene!

Join Brandon Sanderson, Daniel Greene, and Innkeeper Hatch for their Live Wheel of Time Season 2 Finale reactions as they watch it for the first time @PrimeV.

I didn't expect Sanderson to be so critical though it does make sense considering as he says 'my name is on it'. And his sarcastic quip about that last scene - "Why did Rand need to be there? Just give Egwene a sword" pretty much mirrored my frustration with how much they took away from Rand for no reason at all. As it is they have not communicated the magnitute of the threat and why Rand is necessay to fight the DO other than Moiraine telling us he is and Lanfear and Ishamael pushing him to a location - which made no sense on the show.

They have also made the prophecies have no value. What Moiraine did on the show - creating that huge fire dragon - would have made Rand a false dragon controlled by Aes Sedai. The black Ajah - Liandrin for example - can take any man who can channel and channel a huge dragon for him and that would make that man the Dragon Reborn.

Which is why in the books it is the pattern/creator who announces the DR by creating a set of events that leads to Rand fulfilling prophecies. Which is why the good Aes Sedai - Moiraine, Siuane - decide that Rand should be given free rein to do what he choses in the books. Which is what happens in the books. Here though, Siuan wants to chain Rand in the tower, Moiraine decides what Rand should do and Lanfear/Ishamael basically manipulate Rand to get him to Falme.

And why couldn't they have let Nynaeve heal Elayne given her thing in the books is that strong emotions like anger and fear for loved ones is when she can move past the block and channel. Here she got nothing and did nothing.

And apparently Sanderson had to push really hard along with Rafe to include the 'Heroes of the Horn' moment. Which is what's so annoying about all these adaptations where the networks wanting to replicate GOT want less fantasy/magic from a high fantasy series.

There is a lot that is great. Nynaeve's accepted test--and, indeed, a lot of the Wonder Girls up until episode eight. All of the antagonists are wonderful. The stuff with Perrin/Valda/Hopper in episode eight was great. I came around on what was happening with Rand in the early episodes, and really ended up liking it.

At the same time, people need to understand: I have a stake in this they do not. My name is LITERALLY on this product. And so, it being weak in areas that are important to me is something that I find a bigger worry in it than I might in another show.

If you play loose and free with magic systems, then that reflects badly on me--as this is one of my specialties, and people will watch and be annoyed about things that I really, in a perfect world, should have been able to help the writers fix. I consider one of my other big strengths to be character arcs with powerful resolutions, and both seasons have really had troubles with this in the last episodes. That reflects on me, because having me involved should be able to help with this.

If I'm more critical of WoT, it's not because it's bad. Indeed, it's looking stronger than a lot of fantasy television, this season. However, once again, my name is on it. Even if I weren't a producer, my name is on some of the books. I feel more passionate about some of these weaknesses than I might when it comes to another property.

I also hold Rafe, and the writers, in very high regard for the difficult job they are doing quite well.

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of things I can say here. I did talk in my feedback about how I didn't feel like the second season made it clear what they were fighting for--I.E. talk of the Dark One, and the Last Battle, and what the stakes were. Particularly in the last episode.
However, I didn't get a lot of explanation on this point, and I was more concerned with trying to focus on things like having Moiraine and Lan's arc through the season make sense for who they both were.

I'll sometimes do follow up calls or emails with Rafe, and he'll explain some of it. A lot of that I don't feel comfortable sharing, because it's been a while, and I don't want to put words in other people's mouths.
Sometimes, though, it's a studio mandate. Sometimes, an actor really wants the scene to be a certain way. Sometimes, Rafe just disagrees with me. Sometimes, he agrees, but a large number of the rest of the team disagree--and it being a collaboration, he bows to their instincts. Sometimes, I can't have what I want because of the realities of television. (I.E. Mat's actor being swapped, or another actor being needed for some other project during a certain sequence's filming.)
Sometimes, there's no response, as the team is busy and I'm just one of many giving them feedback.

In regards to the Heroes, I wish I could be more specific, but my involvement in the show begins and ends with me talking directly to Rafe. I don't talk to the other producers or writers, and I don't know that they WANT to talk to me. Indeed, I get the sense that most of them would rather I vanished, where Rafe is the one working hard to get feedback from me and is trying very hard to balance his vision, the visions of a lot of other people involved, and Robert Jordan's vision.

I don't understand all of the forces working against him. In regards to the Heroes, it's tough because many things could be going on.

1. He wanted them in the show, but was outvoted by other producers and executives. I gave him more ammunition, and he went back to get them in.
2. Rafe was on board for no Heroes, but then tried it out and solicited feedback. He listened to the feedback and reevaluated.
3. Rafe tried something else that he hoped would work better, perhaps trying an idea suggested by someone else on his team. They may have even written the scene. ("Written By" credits in a show like this are basically just doled out equally among the writer's room, and all of them generally work on all of the episodes, even if some work on a given one more than others.) After feedback, together they decided to try something else, and it worked better.

I don't know, therefore, what the situation was and how much influence I had. I do know that Rafe mentioned he wanted to try to get the Heroes in, and my feedback helped, but I don't know the extent to which that help changed the text.

I do have to say, though, that it bothers me when I point out things that I'm quite expert about--and am unable to make any headway. It's not my show, so fair enough, but I love Perrin and his arc. I think it's really cool, and I think killing his wife undermined it--and then I feel I was proven right by how this event strangled his character growth through the first season. But even on that, I can't say that Rafe was a villain. For one thing, he said he went back to everyone else and made my suggestions for changes to them, and they decided not to go that direction. For another, he and his team need to be allowed to make the art they want to make--that's part of adaptation. I have the right to disagree with it, yes, but I respect greatly their artistic talent.

So, I guess I'm rambling a bit, but let me back you up on what you said. This is a team effort, and together that team has made certain decisions. Don't hate on Rafe; he's your best advocate, but he also is also just one collaborator in a large group of people.

Anyway, I think you're right; the biggest weakness of the show is that it needs more time. There are too many characters, a fault of the source material, for this much time to cover--and their best actor needs episodes like the family drama to shine, which is going to eat up run time. Either that, or in retrospect, they should have decided only to tell a few of the characters' stories and worked in those confines.

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