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Post by PaulH » Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:28 am
First off, to be able to cast a spell in Dark and Darker, you will be required to get your hands on a Magic Staff or a Spell Book depending on the class that you have chosen. We generally have never used the optional 36 level progression for demi-humans, so we went through DD and wanted to check to make sure everything fit for what we wanted.
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[BECMI/RC/Dark Dungeons] Elf vs. Magic-user (1 Viewer)
I've got a question about the optional rules for 36 level progression for demi-humans. Our group has used RC many times and we were planning on buying some copies of Dark Dungeons to help get new players in. We generally have never used the optional 36 level progression for demi-humans, so we went through DD and wanted to check to make sure everything fit for what we wanted. Here is the only concern we found.
Using the RAW from RC, an elf is limited to max of 5th level magic-user spells. That seems like a nice limitation to balance out the fighter/magic-user mixed build. No problem. If you use the 36 level progression (as laid out in DD), it seems that the elf is as good or better than the magic user in every aspect (saves, THAC0, spells, hit points, racial abilities, etc.).
Am I missing something or is this the old "play an elf if you want or play a magic-user if you want"? I know the old days of DnD were NOT focused on balance between classes, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't blind to the obvious.
Thanks for any info,
Vegaserik
Validated User
Validated UserI never had a campaign go that high so we never really bothered with level limits. We just played what we wanted to play. Now it's been a long time since I looked at those rules, didn't an elf need alot more xp to level? I always kinda thought the different xp charts were the attempt at balance but I could be wrong there.
Captain Deadpool
Like Batman. but with GUNS!
Validated UserSorry to be totally worthless, but I remember the Elf-Magic User split to be something of an annoyance in RC. My favorite version of race-as-class (Lamentations of the Flame Princess) has Elves need a ridiculous amount of XP to level (MUs hit level 2 @ 2250 XPs, Elves at 3K) so when the Magic User of the party reaches 15th level, the Elf is just reaching 13th. Basically as an Elf you start out rather badass, but over time you spend more and more time with a party who is higher level than you.
The Little Raven
Sola virtus nobilitat.
Basically as an Elf you start out rather badass, but over time you spend more and more time with a party who is higher level than you.
Same thing with the BD&D Elf, since it caps out at level 10.
Blacky the Blackball
0
I've got a question about the optional rules for 36 level progression for demi-humans. Our group has used RC many times and we were planning on buying some copies of Dark Dungeons to help get new players in. We generally have never used the optional 36 level progression for demi-humans, so we went through DD and wanted to check to make sure everything fit for what we wanted. Here is the only concern we found.
Using the RAW from RC, an elf is limited to max of 5th level magic-user spells. That seems like a nice limitation to balance out the fighter/magic-user mixed build. No problem. If you use the 36 level progression (as laid out in DD), it seems that the elf is as good or better than the magic user in every aspect (saves, THAC0, spells, hit points, racial abilities, etc.).
Am I missing something or is this the old "play an elf if you want or play a magic-user if you want"? I know the old days of DnD were NOT focused on balance between classes, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't blind to the obvious.
Thanks for any info,
You're right that in Dark Dungeons the elf is better than the magic-user in every aspect. However, as others have mentioned, the elf also needs much more experience than a magic-user to increase in level. This pretty much always puts the elf a level behind a magic-user with the same experience total; and therefore 1-2 levels behind the rest of the party (because everyone else goes up more quickly than magic-users).
At high levels this doesn't make much difference; but then at high levels the elf's combat ability doesn't make much difference either. When given the choice between throwing that second Meteor Swarm/Disintegrate or going in with their sword, the spell wins every time. At low levels, the elf's combat ability is much more important - because with only a few low level spells it's much more common to need to resort to it. However, this is the point where a level or two makes a big difference. It's the difference between having that first fireball or not, or shooting 3 magic missiles per shot instead of 1 - or even the difference between being affected by a Sleep spell or not.
So I think it's mostly balanced. Although on paper the elf looks far superior, in my experience people still go for magic-users because they don't want the slower experience gain (or because they simply want to play a human).
Having said that, I think that's mainly a psychological thing of people not wanting to be behind the rest of the party in terms of levels. If you crunch the numbers, it does seem that the difference between the two classes is bigger than the experience difference is. The magic-user needs a little too much XP for their abilities (bear in mind that BECMI magic-users are a great deal less powerful than the 3.x "Batman Wizards" that many are used to) and the elf needs a little too little.
In Darker Dungeons, I "fix" this by basically swapping around the premise of the two classes. Instead of the premise being that "elves are better than you" so elves get to cast magic in armour and also fight whereas human magic-users are wimps; it instead works on the premise that "elves are delicate magical creatures" and basically swaps the two classes around. So elves are the ones who can't wear armour or use most weapons because of their sensitive nature and get fewer hit points and attack bonuses because of their delicate frames (i.e. what the old magic-user class got) but go up levels more quickly because they're inherently magical. On the other hand, magic doesn't come naturally to humans so they must be strong in both mind and body to be able to channel and use it properly. Because of that, human magic-users are trained in both arcane and martial techniques together and can therefore both fight and use magic (i.e. what the old elf class got) but this multi-disciplined training is slow and tough and therefore human magic-users require more experience to go up levels but can use any armour and weapon and get more hit points and attack bonuses (again, stuff that the old elf class got).
While this is mostly a straight swap of the two classes, it isn't exactly. The Elfsight, Infravision, Ghoul Immunity, Breath Evasion and better Saving Throws are all transferring across along with the race, which means that the Darker Dungeons elf class (which matches the Dark Dungeons/BECMI magic-user class) gets a bit more for its experience cost and the Darker Dungeons magic-user class (which matches the Dark Dungeons/BECMI elf class) gets a bit less. I think this improves the balance between them, and it's something I've used as a house rule in my home campaigns for over a decade - but not something I could put in the Dark Dungeons rules because they were supposed to be sticking closely to the BECMI/RC source.
So the next time you're in the mood for some jelly beans, consider using a magical jelly bean detector to guarantee you get the perfect flavor every time..
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