Pathfinder 2e is a tabletop role-playing game that allows players to engage in thrilling adventures and create epic stories. One of the spellcasting options available to players is the subtle spell. Subtle spell is a versatile and powerful spellcasting ability that allows spellcasters to cast spells without any somatic or verbal components. This means that they can cast spells silently and without any visible gestures, making it difficult for others to notice or counter their magic. This ability is particularly useful for spellcasters who want to remain unnoticed or maintain an element of surprise. For example, a subtle spell can be cast to charm or manipulate an NPC without drawing attention to the casting.

Signature Heightening for Spells in 2E

Okay, so if I took Hydraulic Push as my Signature Spell and now I'm level 3, would that make that spell doing 7d6 and 9d6 on a crit, or 5d6 and 7d6, or something else?
If I take Acid Arrow as my 2nd level Signature Spell what would it do?
Please explain well here for me as I'm a new GM to PF2E that came from all the way back in Basic D&D, through until 5th Ed.
Thanks!

The second answer is correct. Spell level is the important factor in what power a spell has, and that increase every other level.

Acid Arrow would be the default as it does not gain an increase until it is 4th level spell, which is a ways off.

For all heightening, it refers exclusively to spell level, rather than character level.

The second answer is correct. Spell level is the important factor in what power a spell has, and that increase every other level.

Acid Arrow would be the default as it does not gain an increase until it is 4th level spell, which is a ways off.

For all heightening, it refers exclusively to spell level, rather than character level.

So I do not understand, fully, the end of your first paragraph. sorry.

Also, so Acid Arrow, a 2nd lvl Spell which says Heightened 2, means that if it's a signature spell at my level 3, it won't be any good to even do. I should choose Heal instead and wait until I get 4th lvl spells to make Acid Arrow a signature spell.
Which I likely wouldn't do since their are spells by then more worthy of that. Right? Wrong? Wow this is kinda confusing to say the least.
Thanks a lot by the for sticking with this for me.

Signature Spell allows you to heighten (or lower, technically) a spell. The amount of damage, or other stats of a spell, is based off of the level the spell slot used to cast it with.

So taking Hydraulic Push as signature allows the character to cast it as either a 1st level spell or a 2nd level spell (at character level 3). So when the player decides to cast Hydraulic Push, spending a 1st level spell slot to do it will make it a 1st level spell still. Spending a 2nd level spell slot will make it a 2nd level spell and it will do the heightened damage.

so Acid Arrow, a 2nd lvl Spell which says Heightened 2, means that if it's a signature spell at my level 3, it won't be any good to even do. I should choose Heal instead and wait until I get 4th lvl spells to make Acid Arrow a signature spell.

Which I likely wouldn't do since their are spells by then more worthy of that.

You couldn't lower the Acid Arrow to 1st level and cast it with a 1st level spell slot, because Acid Arrow doesn't exist at that low of a level. At character level 3, you couldn't heighten the spell any higher than level 2 because you can't cast anything higher than that.

Now, once you can cast level 3 spells, you could heighten Acid Arrow to level 3 and cast it at that level, but it wouldn't get the added damage - that doesn't kick in until spell level 4. It would be harder to counterspell as a 3rd level spell - for whatever that is worth.

Signature Spell allows you to heighten (or lower, technically) a spell. The amount of damage, or other stats of a spell, is based off of the level the spell slot used to cast it with.

So taking Hydraulic Push as signature allows the character to cast it as either a 1st level spell or a 2nd level spell (at character level 3). So when the player decides to cast Hydraulic Push, spending a 1st level spell slot to do it will make it a 1st level spell still. Spending a 2nd level spell slot will make it a 2nd level spell and it will do the heightened damage.

Got it now, thnx a lot!

so Acid Arrow, a 2nd lvl Spell which says Heightened 2, means that if it's a signature spell at my level 3, it won't be any good to even do. I should choose Heal instead and wait until I get 4th lvl spells to make Acid Arrow a signature spell.

Which I likely wouldn't do since their are spells by then more worthy of that.

You couldn't lower the Acid Arrow to 1st level and cast it with a 1st level spell slot, because Acid Arrow doesn't exist at that low of a level. At character level 3, you couldn't heighten the spell any higher than level 2 because you can't cast anything higher than that.

Now, once you can cast level 3 spells, you could heighten Acid Arrow to level 3 and cast it at that level, but it wouldn't get the added damage - that doesn't kick in until spell level 4. It would be harder to counterspell as a 3rd level spell - for whatever that is worth.

Thnx a lot! I think I get it now.

Conceal Spell

Prerequisite(s): Deceitful, Bluff 1 rank, Disguise 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 1 rank.

Benefit(s): When you cast a spell or use a spell-like ability, you can attempt to conceal verbal and somatic components among other speech and gestures, and to conceal the manifestation of casting the spell, so others don’t realize you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability until it is too late. The attempt to hide the spell slows your casting slightly, such that spells that normally take a standard action to cast now take a full-round action, and spells that normally take longer than a standard action take twice as long. (Swift action spells still take a swift action.) To discover your ruse, a creature must succeed at a Perception, Sense Motive, or Spellcraft check (the creature receives an automatic check with whichever of those skills has the highest bonus) against a DC equal to 15 + your number of ranks in Bluff or Disguise (whichever is higher) + your Charisma modifier; the creature gains a bonus on its check equal to the level of the spell or spell-like ability you are concealing.

If your spell has a somatic component, any creature that can see you receives a Perception or Spellcraft check (whichever has the highest bonus) against a DC equal to 15 + your number of ranks in Sleight of Hand + your Dexterity modifier; the creature gains a bonus on its check equal to the level of the spell or spell-like ability you are concealing.

Since you are concealing the spell’s manifestation through other actions, others observing you realize you’re doing something, even if they don’t realize you’re casting a spell. If there is a verbal component, they still hear your loud, clear voice but don’t notice the spell woven within.

If an opponent fails its check, your casting also does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and an opponent that fails its check can’t use readied actions that depend on realizing that you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability, or readied actions such as counterspelling that require identifying the spell you’re casting. Spells such as fireball that create an additional obvious effect (aside from the manifestation of casting that all spells and spell-like abilities share) still create that effect, though it might not be obvious who cast the spell unless it emanates from you.

If a character interacts with you long enough to attempt a Sense Motive check without realizing you have been casting spells, that character can use Sense Motive to gain a hunch that you’re behaving unusually.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Intrigue © 2016, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Jesse Benner, John Bennett, Logan Bonner, Robert Brookes, Jason Bulmahn, Ross Byers, Robert N. Emerson, Amanda Hamon Kunz, Steven Helt, Thurston Hillman, Tim Hitchcock, Mikko Kallio, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Thomas M. Reid, Alexander Riggs, David N. Ross, David Schwartz, Mark Seifter, Linda Zayas-Palmer.

Pathfinder 2e - Still liking it? What are you playing? (1 Viewer)

Pathfinder 2e players - how's it going now that we're out a bit of time.

Still like it? Does it play better than 1st ed? Higher levels a bit easier?
GMing it any different than 1st?

Playing homebrew or published material? How well do the 1st ed modules\AP convert?

loving it
about to run the show must go on in a week in FG so trying to remember how to use fg in between work calls

Lysus

Unbelievably Fancy Ostrich

I'll also point out it's trivially easy to have several cantrips at level 2. Each spellcaster class starts with 4 cantrips (with each power source having access to at least one damaging cantrip), half of the ancestries have feat access to 1 cantrip, and multi-classing into another spellcaster class (minimum 14 in that stat) will give you 2 more. So even low-level spellcasters can have an all-day access to damage and utility spells, on top of their spikey levelled-spells.

In general conversation, I think it's fairly agreed upon that spellcasters do far less damage than they used to, but the utility is still strong early and throughout. Martial classes have to wait until level 16+ to get semi-magical effects, but casters still have access to Fly and Invisibility at the same levels.

One subtle benefit is that many spells level up: Heal and Summon Animal don't have different versions, but increase in power based on the spell level you have available to assign to it. So casters with limited spell access like spontaneous casters and Wizards can 'stretch' their spell list out. I've found that leads to more 'niche' spells being available to PCs, since they don't have to spend all their choices on bread-and-butter spells.

My reading of the spells like Heal and Summons is that in order for a spontaneous caster to use it at a higher level, they also have to know it (and take up a known spell slot) at that higher level. Is this not the case?

Is Heightened(4th) Silence spell balanced?

Heightened (4th) The spell effect emanates from the touched creature, silencing all sound in or passing through a 10- foot radius and preventing any auditory and sonic effects in the affected area. While within the radius, creatures are subject to the same effects as the target. Depending upon the position of the effect, a creature might notice the lack of sound reaching it (blocking off the noise coming from a party, for example).

This means that without any saving throw any caster that is near the target is utterly defenseless against physical attacks and unable to do any meaningful action, and this is regardless of his level. This is because most spells have of course a verbal trait. Just by this threat existing any wise magic user must take into account that he must have some kind of strategy to avoid such a situation and this is a very deep rabbit hole. What I want to know is if this is taken into account in the balance of the game or if this is something that has somehow slipped in and we really should let any caster at least try to avoid the effect by adding a saving throw every turn they are inside the silence area?

For example, a subtle spell can be cast to charm or manipulate an NPC without drawing attention to the casting. It can also be used to stealthily cast offensive spells, catching enemies off guard. In addition to its sneaky applications, the subtle spell can also be utilized in social interactions.

2 Answers 2

It is balanced

Usually it just means the caster needs to Stride 2 squares. Most enemies do not have Attack of Opportunity, so you can safely do it, and even if they do have it, it is just some damage, cannot disrupt the movement.

You are in more trouble if you are Grabbed and Silenced, but then you can just try to get out of the Grab, most casters tend to do that anyway even without Silence, as Grab imposes a flat check on Manipulate.
I think the reason why the 2nd level version does not shut down spellcasting is exactly Grabs, more specifically that Freedom of Movement is only available as a 4th level spell.

And of course you have other party members, who should be able to help, by moving you, the enemy (thus ending the Grab), or casting Dispell Magic.

Just because you cannot easily do what you usually do, it can still be balanced.
Think about Golems, they are immune to magic, should blasters get a saving throw?

A spellcaster with this ability can subtly enchant or manipulate conversations, using their magic to influence others without anyone suspecting foul play. This can be especially useful in diplomatic or negotiation situations. However, it's important to note that the subtle spell has its limitations. It requires a heightened level of magical control and focus, and as such, it can only be used on spells that have somatic and verbal components. Spells that rely solely on material components cannot be cast subtly. Furthermore, the subtle spell does not grant immunity from detection or counter spells. Perceptive or knowledgeable individuals may still notice the effects of a subtle spell, and spellcasters with sufficient magical prowess may be able to identify and dispel the magic. Overall, the subtle spell is a valuable tool in a spellcaster's arsenal, providing new possibilities for manipulation, deception, and surprise. It allows players to explore a different aspect of spellcasting and adds an extra layer of depth to their character's abilities..

Reviews for "Mastering the Subtle Arts of Spellcasting in Pathfinder 2e"

- John Smith - 2 stars - I was really excited to try out the Pathfinder 2e subtle spell, but it just didn't live up to my expectations. The idea of being able to cast spells covertly and without being noticed sounded great, but in practice, it felt underwhelming. The limitations on the types of spells that can be cast subtly were just too restrictive, and I found myself rarely using this feature. Additionally, the cost of using subtle spell was often too high, as it required spending additional actions or spell points. Overall, I was disappointed with this aspect of Pathfinder 2e.

- Mary Johnson - 1 star - I have to say, the Pathfinder 2e subtle spell was a major letdown for me. It felt like a useless feature that rarely had any practical applications. Most of the time, I found myself using other spellcasting abilities instead, as they were more versatile and had greater impact in combat. The limited range of subtle spell also made it less appealing, as I often had to be in close proximity to my target to use it. I really hope they improve this aspect of the game in future updates.

- Robert Davis - 3 stars - I have mixed feelings about the Pathfinder 2e subtle spell. On one hand, I appreciate the idea behind it and the potential for sneaky spellcasting. However, in practice, it often fell short. The limitations on spell selection and the high cost of using subtle spell made it feel like more of a hindrance than a useful ability. I would have liked to see more variety and options for subtle spells, as well as a more balanced cost. Overall, it has some potential, but it needs some work to truly be an enjoyable aspect of Pathfinder 2e.

Understanding the Mechanics of Subtle Spell in Pathfinder 2e