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In addition to performances and TV appearances around the world, Derren has also written a number of books. Alongside studies of magic, memory and mindreading, he is the author of Happy: Why More or Less Everything is Absolutely Fine, in which he examines how concepts of happiness have changed over time, how we define happiness and success, and how to be happier. He followed that up with A Little Happier: Notes for Reassurance, a sometimes personal look at how we can challenge ourselves to be happier, to consider what we can and cannot control, and set goals that are fulfiling and valuable. In both of these books, Darren takes his lessons in human behaviour and perception and combines them with a look at ideas from Classical philosophy and ideas of what is a good life, how to face adversity, and both the value and nature of anxiety and difficulty.

He followed that up with A Little Happier Notes for Reassurance , a sometimes personal look at how we can challenge ourselves to be happier, to consider what we can and cannot control, and set goals that are fulfiling and valuable. Only when it is taken to the next level, be it to form a following of believers willing to throw money and voice to your cause or if you are going to let them off that particular hook by inviting them to your next show.

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talkmagic.co.uk

Ted wrote: Well, if you are not going to answer my question about the study you've requested I guess I have nothing more to offer you in this discussion. Sorry, but I think you're trolling (and if you truly don't know what that means then you can always use Google to find out).

is it like dogging for magicians?

regarding study, i dont think a list of criminal swill do - i want interviews with people that attend medium sessions - published in nature not abrcadabra

by SpareJoker » May 11th, '10, 16:09

SpareJoker Senior Member Posts: 399 Joined: Apr 25th, '10, 12:16 Location: West Midlands, UK (SH, Card magic)

by Craig Browning » May 11th, '10, 16:22

I just love watching people defend their heroes

Fact is anyone and everyone involved with theater LIES. it's part of our job, in that we create the illusion of being someone or something we are not; especially when it comes to the worlds of Mentalism and to a lesser degree, Bizarre Magick.

Yes, I do believe that what was described as to how DB went about presenting this particular program and in some cases, other bits I've seen him do, is highly questionable due to the ALLUSION he's creating and the deliberate manipulation of the viewer's perception. especially if someone like Geller were to use this same exact approach, finding hypocrites from within the skeptic's community beating their drums of condemnation. Those using this same approach, such as DB, standing in the lead of such antics. oddly, we see this same scenario unfold weekly here in the States by way of the religious zealots who usurp the methods used by "cults" and "charismatic" New Age types so as to brain-wash the young minds into cult compliance and supposed social norms. Either way, we are looking at hypocrisy and double-speak.

I do have to step back and extend to DB kudos however, in that this is very much how Mentalism is supposed to be presented. as being genuine, whether you are claiming to speak to the dead, alien abduction or NLP. the gist of the lie and its purpose are one in the same, we are deluding ourselves to think otherwise.

Is thus an approach "unethical"?

Only when it is taken to the next level, be it to form a following of believers willing to throw money and voice to your cause or if you are going to let them off that particular hook by inviting them to your next show. Just like the local garage band, we do shows/demonstrations in order to generate interest and a following -- patronage. It's just how we go about handling the fan base that's important. While I don't entirely agree with some of Derren's "management points" I have to give him kudos when it comes to this side of things, echoing the fact that he's been "ethical" in the sense of not walking the more sinister or predatory path he could. any of us could, for that matter (including our magician cousins).

Admittedly I don't think some of what Derren and other members of the Skeptic's societies do is "ethical" but that's an entirely different set of issues altogether. In this particular instance I have to support DB in that he did what any one of the old timers would have done; exploiting the medium (no pun intended) in which he worked.

Re: derren brown - unethical?

by DrTodd » May 11th, '10, 16:22

abecedarianmind wrote: I watched derren last night.

I found what he was doing to be highly unethical on many levels.

let's just start with one main deception. He used a documentary format. But it wasnt a documentary. So, instant deception.

He used camera shots that implied that it was being done on the hoof. But from the camera shots, I don't believe it was.

I was an extra in the film Magician _ same production company I believe. It took hours to get 30 seconds.

So, same must apply to this filming - no way were the shots impromuto, actually been done on the cuff.

The medium was unknown - more like an actor in my mind.

I think this is a clever derren brown trick on us all. I cannot reveal his magic tricks on here, but I can reveal my beliefs on the documentary.

The greatest trick derren brown has ever produced is making you believe that what you see on TV is real. This was a massive con, in my humble opinion.

This thread may continue, so I am happy to add more reasons why this is unethical and unscientific. but (let's be positive) it may be the greatest illusion he's pulled to date - convincing the world he is actually a debunker - good bit of acting derren.

We sit at your feet and learn!

I agree entirely.

If he wanted to investigate then use focus groups, control groups, psychics and mentalists in ways that probe preceptions of reality. If Wiseman is a scientist investigating claims of paranormal behaviour why did he not setup a scientific protocol to do just that.

More importantly, he used the guise of challenging a self-proclaimed psychic to expose trade methods in a manner that was smug and self-congratulatory although couched in a passive aggressive manner that made it look as though he did not know what he was doing.

I found the show very disappointing.

by TonyB » May 11th, '10, 18:12

Life is too short to wade through six pages of waffle. All I will say is that I enjoyed last night's show, and Derren bent over backwards not to crucify Joe, who, in fairness, came across as a nice guy, despite his scummy calling.
It's not science, and it doesn't pretend to be. It is informative entertainment, and on that level it worked very well.

by IAIN » May 11th, '10, 18:19

right, finally watched it now.

all in all, i don't think derren revealed too much. there's quite a few books out, and lots of internet pages on cold reading and barnum statements.

so i don't feel he's dropped anything of any major importance to the mentalism community - when you consider that very few mediums would also admit to being mentalists.

i found joe to be both stupid, and aggressive. even rude during his "show" or telling that woman that he knew best and "thought quicker".

i also found derren to at least admit (whether he meant it or not) that perhaps these mediums do provide a service in some way. maybe a release of worry or similar.

it would have been fun to put a few hidden cameras upstairs though i must say.

you can find the 4oD link to this show in the "documentaries" section.

it was entertaining though, and very interesting. enjoyable while i am laid out with a virus and eating maltesers

by dat8962 » May 11th, '10, 18:27

I watched it and I'm bemused at what all of the fuss is about.

Don't your TV's have an on/off switch? Why force yourself to watch through something that you have issues with?

I enjoyed the programme and thought that the medium was far more unethical that Derren and I think that most people took this view judging from what I heard on the radio today.

However, I still don't see it as a big deal.

Member of the Magic Circle & The 2009 British Isles Close-Up Magician of the Year
It's not really an optical illusion - it just looks like one!

dat8962 Veteran Member Posts: 9265 Joined: Jan 29th, '04, 19:19 Location: Leamington Spa (50:Semi-Pro)

by Ted » May 11th, '10, 18:29

Derren 'revealed' Barnum statements years ago anyway - with the routine where he gave a bunch of foreign students 'personal' readings.

by abecedarianmind » May 11th, '10, 18:59

ok, when derren brown says, i am a magician - you think - (s)he will deceive me, but you watch because you like to be amazed

when a medium says, i am a medium, people watch and know (s)he could be a fake, but want to be amazed

why would a magician try to out a medium when they have the same heritage and manner?

both audiences know they could be watching a fake, it is their free choice

derren brown will be outing cowboy builders next!

by SamGurney » May 11th, '10, 19:02

Oh For God's sake this thread is rediculous.
Fact Number one- Derren is an entertainer.
Fact Number two- Derren entertains.
That is all.

by IAIN » May 11th, '10, 19:03

when someone is told that "i am a medium" - they either accept it, or think he's talking rubbish. not "i want to be amazed".

and just cos the guy happens to be gay, doesnt deserve the (s)he comments.

i think you're a bit doolally with a grudge to bear if I'm being completely honest with you.

"why would a magician try to out a medium when they have the same heritage and manner? " - you don't know the heritage too well then do you. you know how our mentalism came about don't you? magicians exposes fraudulent psychic mediums.

not many people pay a tenner to go and see a medium that they believe to be fake.

abecedarianmind wrote: I watched derren last night.

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