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Thinking about it I have determined that I would say the use is combined with the concentration or casting, but I want to hear what everyone else thinks. Granted each one was probably written by a different author, but most of the spell tricks came from the same book, so the editing team should have been the same for all except floating disk at least.
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Magic Trick: Mage Hand, Action Economy?
Hello all, so I've been planning out a character who uses this feat for ranged thieving and hits with it for giggles. I'm trying to understand how the action economy of using the spell with these applications should be handled. Here's the relevant text:
Magic Trick: Mage Hang Excerpt wrote:Dirty Magic Trick (base attack bonus +1, Improved Dirty Trick): You can manipulate a target’s clothing or a nearby object to attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against a single opponent in the spell’s range, using your combat maneuver bonus for the check.
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Ranged Aid (base attack bonus +1): You’ve learned to use your mage hand to tug at an opponent’s hair, clothing, and equipment. You can use the aid another action at range, attempting a ranged touch attack instead of a melee attack.
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Subtle Hand (Deft Hands, Disable Device 6 ranks, Sleight of Hand 6 ranks): You can attempt Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks within range of your mage hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and you cannot take 10 on this check.
Throw Punch (Improved Unarmed Strike): You can use mage hand to strike an opponent within the spell’s range. This is a melee attack that always deals 1d3 points of force damage. The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. Spell resistance applies against this ability
Each of these applications would presumably require a standard action or more to accomplish but casting the spell requires that action, and on subsequent rounds concentration requires your standard. So if one were to assume you have to make the action separate from concentration on or casting the spell, all of these would be useless. Thinking about it I have determined that I would say the use is combined with the concentration or casting, but I want to hear what everyone else thinks.
A second question that is more contentions, when we use the throw punch application can the caster apply things like sneak attack, Can you "full attack" with it? Can you threaten with it? Can you apply other bonuses to damage or to hit that would normally apply to melee attacks?
My opinion on all of these is that sadly no none of those things can apply, it's effectively just casting another 1d3 damage cantrip, nothing more except for the odd bonuses to hit compared to the ranged ones.
casting a spell (such as Mage Hand) will involve Spellcasting Manifrustrations which everyone in the area can notice.
Azothath wrote:casting Mage Hand will involve Spellcasting Manifrustrations which everyone in the area can notice.
I mean yes, I know that, but that has nothing to do with the questions I asked.
Since you brought it up though, there are ways around that. Cast it, in a private area, then move to the person you want to use slight of hand on while concentrating on the spell, take one of the feats or abilities that allows for hiding casting, have some distraction that diverts attention etc. etc. That is all assuming you don't have a GM that doesn't make spells manifestations a problem.
Also it's still super handy for long range trap or lock disabling so there's that. (Sift is a great compliment)
But as I said this is off topic. Thanks for replying though.
Based on the way Mage Hand is written the effects of it happen as part of concentrating, and its movement as part of a seperate move action. Otherwise the spell would be quite literally unusable as intended.
The Mage Hand tricks are overall better for out of combat or very specific circumstances.
Three of the listed applications are explicitly combat only actions though; a combat maneuver, aid another, and a melee attack.
I can see an argument being made for each requiring a move action per the spell's "As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction" but as the specific feat's text is listing uses for the spell and doesn't refer to that text as being a part of the 'doing' for those applications I don't think that makes sense.
Casting Spells - Concentration so it's not that hard to maintain concentration on a cantrip or First level spell.
Mage Hand:T0 duration is concentration (a std actn each round).
Magic Trick each trick with Mage Hand involves a casting of the spell.
The Magic Trick "Choose one spell. You are able to manipulate that spell beyond its typical uses." thus the action is part of the standard action of maintaining concentration thus it is a standard action or longer (if the action takes longer). The feat changes the uses of the spell as described in each option and a few state it is a casting of Mage Hand (not continuing concentration).
I'm not certain that maintaining concentration will allow you to move beyond the spellcasting manifestations, I think it will vary with the GM as the clear intent of the effect was to prevent spellcasters from running amuck (In this case we have official designer comments to that effect).
I also think maintaining concentration on a spell is normally perceivable (as it takes a standard action). The DC is up to your GM but I'll hazard a guess between 5-15.
. thus the action is part of the standard action of maintaining concentration thus it is a standard action or longer (if the action takes longer).
I agree with this conclusion, I'm hoping for someone to be able to point to something conclusive that that is the case though as it seems open to interpretation to me. An example that comes to mind of concentration allowing for the manipulation, I can think of, is manipulating a illusion spell that requires concentration. But it's not a perfect analog.
Azothath wrote:I'm not certain that maintaining concentration will allow you to move beyond the spellcasting manifestations, I think it will vary with the GM as the clear intent of the effect was to prevent spellcasters from running amuck (In this case we have official designer comments to that effect).
That's fair. I would expect to meet to clear such things with my GM. Table variation is likely. A surefire way to avoid that part would be something like the conceal spell feat. But that's a further 2 feats and rolls. So if I can I'll avoid that.
I'd suggest Illusion of Calm:I1 or Minor Image:I2(over your square for 2r) as it covers your square and actions. It Requires GM agreement and assumes Spellcasting Manifestations Only Occur In The Caster's Square.
Obscuring Mist:C1 is a bit more opaque.
Also good suggestions, but the "how to deal with spell manifestations" discussion while worthwhile isn't really where I want to focus on with this thread. I want to nail down the action economy of the applications and how other things interact with the throw punch application of the feat.
Not that I don't appreciate the input, just want to keep things focused. :)
Just because something is a "combat action" does not mean that they are an "only combat action". My statement was more about the fact Magic Trick Mage Hand is more of a QoL upgrade than a combat boost.
The movement costing a move action is only if you are moving an object. So if you were to make a ranged steal maneuver using mage hand you would need a move action to move the stolen item (unless the ability said otherwise). This means that none of the abilities you listed would cost an additional action.
Because you are spending a standard action on concentration you cannot full attack, making Throw Punch more like a cantrip. However, Throw Punch is much better than a cantrip because it is a melee attack and thus can add Str to damage and benefit from abilities that boost all melee attacks.
As for whether you threaten in the spell area. If the thing worked like a whip then yes you would provoke the full 30ft+ radius area. However because the ability is throwing a punch I would say that you don't and are in fact mimicking a thrown weapon. There is also the fact that you are not wielding Mage Hand just your normal unarmed strikes.
baggageboy wrote:Hello all, so I've been planning out a character who uses this feat for ranged thieving and hits with it for giggles. I'm trying to understand how the action economy of using the spell with these applications should be handled. Here's the relevant text:
Magic Trick: Mage Hang Excerpt wrote:Dirty Magic Trick (base attack bonus +1, Improved Dirty Trick): You can manipulate a target’s clothing or a nearby object to attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against a single opponent in the spell’s range, using your combat maneuver bonus for the check.
.
Ranged Aid (base attack bonus +1): You’ve learned to use your mage hand to tug at an opponent’s hair, clothing, and equipment. You can use the aid another action at range, attempting a ranged touch attack instead of a melee attack.
.
Subtle Hand (Deft Hands, Disable Device 6 ranks, Sleight of Hand 6 ranks): You can attempt Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks within range of your mage hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and you cannot take 10 on this check.
Throw Punch (Improved Unarmed Strike): You can use mage hand to strike an opponent within the spell’s range. This is a melee attack that always deals 1d3 points of force damage. The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. Spell resistance applies against this ability
Each of these applications would presumably require a standard action or more to accomplish but casting the spell requires that action, and on subsequent rounds concentration requires your standard. So if one were to assume you have to make the action separate from concentration on or casting the spell, all of these would be useless. Thinking about it I have determined that I would say the use is combined with the concentration or casting, but I want to hear what everyone else thinks.
My original reading was that these abilities were one time effects from one time castings. So, you cast mage hand and the magic trick effect happens, and then the spell is over. Basically, my thought was that those tricks modify the goal and mechanics of mage hand.
On deeper reading, I'm not really sure. It'd be nice to get some developer intent on this, but I have no idea who wrote that and it's unlikely they are still checking these boards.
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The movement costing a move action is only if you are moving an object. So if you were to make a ranged steal maneuver using mage hand you would need a move action to move the stolen item (unless the ability said otherwise). This means that none of the abilities you listed would cost an additional action.
Well you can't make a steal maneuver, only a slight of hand check, so I don't think you actually can use that application in combat. The interpretation that you cast the spell to have the listed effect, namely to perform the actual check, then spend move actions to move the item to yourself I could agree with.
Temperans wrote:Because you are spending a standard action on concentration you cannot full attack, making Throw Punch more like a cantrip.
How do you come to this conclusion? What is your logic here? I agree with the conclusion, I just want to be clear why we believe that. If you spend a standard action to concentrate 6ou don't have a standard action left to spend making an attack action. That is one way to think about it, but that doesn't make sense as it would invalidate the feat. Another way (which I think is what we are agreeing is the case) is that when you concentrate you are effectively making the spell do the thing, whether that is throw punch or subtle hand or whatever, in which it would do the listed action, no more, no less. A third way of looking at it is that you need to spend time concentrating, but if you do you can attack and keep attacking, making attacked as your BAB would allow. I don't agree with that interpretation as there is nothing in the text of the feat that implies that's possible.
Temperans wrote:However, Throw Punch is much better than a cantrip because it is a melee attack and thus can add Str to damage and benefit from abilities that boost all melee attacks.
This i don't agree with. While it is different (no penalties for soft cover, or your target being engaged in melee combat, goes against AC instead of touch AC) the test is pretty explicit. "You can use mage hand to strike an opponent within the spell’s range. This is a melee attack that always deals 1d3 points of force damage. The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest." Emphasis mine. I interpret this as the mage had itself is making a melee attack, not the caster, so strength bonuses, or penalties don't apply.
Temperans wrote:As for whether you threaten in the spell area. If the thing worked like a whip then yes you would provoke the full 30ft+ radius area. However because the ability is throwing a punch I would say that you don't and are in fact mimicking a thrown weapon. There is also the fact that you are not wielding Mage Hand just your normal unarmed strikes.
So I don't think you are "wielding" anything, if you were wielding an immaterial unarmed strike with the spell's reach then you would threaten, as having improved armed strike would mean you threaten at your reach's range so long as the spell is active, but that's not how I interpret it.
Melkiador wrote:"My original reading was that these abilities were one time effects from one time castings. So, you cast mage hand and the magic trick effect happens, and then the spell is over. Basically, my thought was that those tricks modify the goal and mechanics of mage hand.
On deeper reading, I'm not really sure. It'd be nice to get some developer intent on this, but I have no idea who wrote that and it's unlikely they are still checking these boards.
I al leaning towards your original interpretation more and more if for no other reason than it simplifies so much. It would mean that you have to cast the spell multiple times to make multiple attacks with throw punch, instead of concentrating each round, but a simple interpretation is so much cleaner. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it easier to run.
The place where that could be supported I think is the general feat text:
magic trick wrote:Prerequisites: Ability to cast the chosen spell or spell-like ability.
Benefit: You can use any magic tricks relating to the chosen spell so long as you meet the appropriate magic trick requirements.
There is nothing explicit that says you have to cast the spell to even use the tricks, just be able to cast the spell. But I think it is strongly implied that you muse cast the spell and then can use the spell for the listed tricks benefit. This is consistent across the various spells listed and their tricks. Any interpretation that would say differently is simply being obtuse. Where it gets murky is how does a spell with an ongoing duration interact with the trick text. Some are explicit and give actions required to do something other than the usual spell effects, others have no such text. For those I think it is consistent to look at the trick as being an alternate spell text as it were and the duration of the trick be whatever makes sense.
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Most tricks are explicitly riders on their spells.
When you cast daylight.
You can reduce the radius of your fireball.
While riding atop your floating disk.
A lot of the mage hand tricks are weird because they don't reference working with the spell.
Agreed which is why I'm here hoping we as a whole can come to a conclusion on this. Personally I like the interpretation that you cast mage hand and it does the trick's text then ends. It makes things so much simpler. For actions that would take longer than a round (some disable attempts for example) you would have to maintain concentration till you complete the action where on the spell would end. It's not the most favorable interpretation, but it seems to be more consistent with the other spells the feat allows. Granted each one was probably written by a different author, but most of the spell tricks came from the same book, so the editing team should have been the same for all except floating disk at least.
baggageboy wrote: Temperans wrote:The movement costing a move action is only if you are moving an object. So if you were to make a ranged steal maneuver using mage hand you would need a move action to move the stolen item (unless the ability said otherwise). This means that none of the abilities you listed would cost an additional action.
Well you can't make a steal maneuver, only a slight of hand check, so I don't think you actually can use that application in combat. The interpretation that you cast the spell to have the listed effect, namely to perform the actual check, then spend move actions to move the item to yourself I could agree with.
Temperans wrote:Because you are spending a standard action on concentration you cannot full attack, making Throw Punch more like a cantrip.
How do you come to this conclusion? What is your logic here? I agree with the conclusion, I just want to be clear why we believe that. If you spend a standard action to concentrate 6ou don't have a standard action left to spend making an attack action. That is one way to think about it, but that doesn't make sense as it would invalidate the feat. Another way (which I think is what we are agreeing is the case) is that when you concentrate you are effectively making the spell do the thing, whether that is throw punch or subtle hand or whatever, in which it would do the listed action, no more, no less. A third way of looking at it is that you need to spend time concentrating, but if you do you can attack and keep attacking, making attacked as your BAB would allow. I don't agree with that interpretation as there is nothing in the text of the feat that implies that's possible.
Temperans wrote:However, Throw Punch is much better than a cantrip because it is a melee attack and thus can add Str to damage and benefit from abilities that boost all melee attacks.
This i don't agree with. While it is different (no penalties for soft cover, or your target being engaged in melee combat, goes against AC.
I used steal as an example because I believe Ranged Ledermain is able to use steal maneuver and that is basically upgraded Mage Hand. So it was an easy way to explain what I meant originally.
My logic is that when you concentrate on the spell you may have it do anything that the spell is allowed to do and is not specifically limited to "on cast". So in this case you can use Throw Punch every turn as part of the concentration check to maintain the spell. Mechanically a concentration check and casting the spell again are effectively the same, and if it was only "on cast" it would say so. You cannot full attack because you have no full round action to do so.
Yes it goes against AC but it is force damage (not resisted), it counts as a melee attack (gets any buff you have that applies to melee attacks), it specifically tells you how to calculate the Attack bonus but not that you can't add your Str bonus, it uses full caster level + highest stat for the attack bonus making it considerably more accurate specially because you can stack CL increases with Attack bonus increases. Even if you cannot add Str, that is still a lot better than all the other damaging cantrips which are 1d3 elemental.
* P.S. The issue with Mage Hand is that its concentration, which causes issues with action economy if you treat the concentration check as purely independent. Effectively all spells with concentration become unusable if you rule that you must spend an additional action to do anything with said spell.
Based on the way Mage Hand is written the effects of it happen as part of concentrating, and its movement as part of a seperate move action. Otherwise the spell would be quite literally unusable as intended.
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