The fascinating history behind the Magic Square of Saturn

A Magic Square of Saturn is a numerical grid that contains the numbers 1 to 9 arranged in such a way that the sum of each row, column, and diagonal is the same. This concept originated from astrology, where Saturn is associated with patience, discipline, and time. The Magic Square of Saturn is believed to hold powerful mystical properties. It is often used in magic rituals and divination practices to achieve balance, enhance focus, and attract positive energy. Each number in the square is associated with a specific meaning or symbolism, making it an important tool in spiritual practices. The arrangement of the numbers in the Magic Square of Saturn is as follows: 4 9 2 3 5 7 8 1 6 In this arrangement, the sum of each row, column, and diagonal is equal to 15.

I kno im aware of that. Seems now that milling is more hassle and money then what its worth. And i dont know what the numbers for milling would be but i probably wouldnt even get much xtra HP

So i guess my cam is the best i can get for under the curve cuz as u can see from the dyno it makes good power and torque down low so hopefully the heads will add to it more. when they say the peak power is at 6200rpm, that means that from 2200 sometimes more like 3000rpm the torque is a nice flat line means you are pulling hard upto that 6200rpm, and from there it tapers off.

The arrangement of the numbers in the Magic Square of Saturn is as follows: 4 9 2 3 5 7 8 1 6 In this arrangement, the sum of each row, column, and diagonal is equal to 15. This symmetry and balance are thought to bring harmony and attract positive vibrations. The Magic Square of Saturn can also be used in various forms of art, such as painting and sculpture.

Thread: TSP MS4 Camshaft Magic Stick V.4 any good??

I currently have a TR 231/236 595./602. 112LSA in my car and am making 390RWHP with some bolt-ons but no heads..

The TSP MS4 Camshaft Magic Stick V.4 is a 239/242, .649"/.609" 112 or 111LSA

My car is street driven and is currently a DD. Will the TSP cam give me more power under the curve for drag racing while still keeping my car able to be a DD or is it a waste of money to put this cam in.

Visualize°Design°Create Join Date Dec 2005 Location DFW Posts 9,285
'18 CTS-V '13 ZL1

I currently have a TR 231/236 595./602. 112LSA in my car and am making 390RWHP with some bolt-ons but no heads..

The TSP MS4 Camshaft Magic Stick V.4 is a 239/242, .649"/.609" 112 or 111LSA

My car is street driven and is currently a DD. Will the TSP cam give me more power under the curve for drag racing while still keeping my car able to be a DD or is it a waste of money to put this cam in.

you will be much happier with what you currently have. going to that MS4 means you are going to a 'peak power' cam. there is no 'under the curve power' with a cam that size. you have no power until 5000rpm up to 7000rpm. are you really going to be spending your time driving that car daily at those rpm's? bigger isnt better and people with smaller cams can/have beat guys who run bigger cams because they have the power under the curve (usable power). personally i think it would be a waste of time, money and resources for you to go to that cam.

Senior Member Join Date Sep 2005 Location New York, NY Posts 1,718
Collectors Edition Yellow 2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6

you will be much happier with what you currently have. going to that MS4 means you are going to a 'peak power' cam. there is no 'under the curve power' with a cam that size. you have no power until 5000rpm up to 7000rpm. are you really going to be spending your time driving that car daily at those rpm's? bigger isnt better and people with smaller cams can/have beat guys who run bigger cams because they have the power under the curve. personally i think it would be a waste of time, money and resources for you to go to that cam.

I appriciate the honesty man. Yea im looking to get down the track quicker not be a number whore. Cuz the cam i have now starts up at 1800 but the TSP states that the powerband in from 2200-6800 is that accurate? But then it says that it's peak power is at 6200 so i see your point. So for better 1/4 mile times stick with wut ive got?

Senior Member Join Date Sep 2005 Location New York, NY Posts 1,718
Collectors Edition Yellow 2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6

This is my dyno sheet for that cam.

2002 Trans AM WS6 CE M6
411RWHP 409RWTQ uncorrected
390RWHP 388RWTQ corrected

Thunder Racing 231/236 .592/.602 111.5LSA Cam, Stock bottom end
Fully upgraded valve terrain, ASP underdrive pully, LS2 Double roller timing chain,
LS6 Intake, SLP LID, SLP smooth bellows, K&N filter, 10.5mm Accel Pro Race wires and NGK iridium sparks .5 gapped, Pacesetter headers with 3" mandrel bend X-pipe true dual exhaust (no cats), 4.10 rear stock 10bolt, Nitto 555dr 315/35/17R Street slicks, full BMR suspension except shocks, and a Hurst short throw shifter.

Last edited by NeeD4SpeeD; 04-26-2007 at 07:05 AM .

Visualize°Design°Create Join Date Dec 2005 Location DFW Posts 9,285
'18 CTS-V '13 ZL1

I appriciate the honesty man. Yea im looking to get down the track quicker not be a number whore. Cuz the cam i have now starts up at 1800 but the TSP states that the powerband in from 2200-6800 is that accurate? But then it says that it's peak power is at 6200 so i see your point. So for better 1/4 mile times stick with wut ive got?

stick with what you have. i currently have a 224 cam and im going a little bigger to a TSP 231/237 .598/.595 @112+2 lsa. it will give me more power and slightly move my 'peak power' up in the rpm band but not out of the range for daily driving.

when they say the 'peak' power is at 6200rpm, that means that from 2200 (sometimes more like 3000rpm) the torque is a nice flat line (means you are pulling hard) upto that 6200rpm, and from there it tapers off.

basically if you go with that bigger cam you would lose alot in the low rpm's. then you have to compensate that with gears, etc to get/keep it in the 'usuable' power band.

attached is my dyno sheet with all my mods excpet for the Ls6 intake. you can see the 'under the curve' power it makes (nice flat torque curve).

if you dont have gears already, that should be you next mod over a bigger cam. the gears would make DD more fun and really give you results at the track.

2018 CTS-V: °°668rwhp/658rwtq°°
2013 ZL1: °°590rwhp/576rwtq°°
"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience."

Senior Member Join Date Sep 2005 Location New York, NY Posts 1,718
Collectors Edition Yellow 2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6

Nice dyno sheet man. That is a nice flat TQ line you have there. I have my dyno sheet 2 posts up and mine is alittle more arched due to the larger cam but i see your point now. Peak TQ qould be farther up the powerband and my peak is at 4600 or so as it is so i dont want it higher then that. When my afr 205cc 66cc arrive and i have them milled my performance should jump into the 420-430rw area im hopeing with a nice tune.

Pathelogical Liar Join Date Aug 2006 Location Missouri Age 36 Posts 1,476
Black 94 Camaro Z28

you will be much happier with what you currently have. going to that MS4 means you are going to a 'peak power' cam. there is no 'under the curve power' with a cam that size. you have no power until 5000rpm up to 7000rpm. are you really going to be spending your time driving that car daily at those rpm's? bigger isnt better and people with smaller cams can/have beat guys who run bigger cams because they have the power under the curve (usable power). personally i think it would be a waste of time, money and resources for you to go to that cam.

Couldn't have said it better. On another forum I'm on, I know a guy who raced another guy who had MS4 cam. His cam was a little smaller, but had more 'under the curve power' and pulled on him through most of the RPM range. He said the other guy didn't start catching up till 5K or so. With both of them hooking from a dig, he was out front till about 115 or so.

Senior Member Join Date Sep 2005 Location New York, NY Posts 1,718
Collectors Edition Yellow 2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6

Couldn't have said it better. On another forum I'm on, I know a guy who raced another guy who had MS4 cam. His cam was a little smaller, but had more 'under the curve power' and pulled on him through most of the RPM range. He said the other guy didn't start catching up till 5K or so. With both of them hooking from a dig, he was out front till about 115 or so.

I see. So i guess my cam is the best i can get for under the curve cuz as u can see from the dyno it makes good power and torque down low so hopefully the heads will add to it more.

Visualize°Design°Create Join Date Dec 2005 Location DFW Posts 9,285
'18 CTS-V '13 ZL1

you think you get your ass planted now, oh buddy, just you wait.

Senior Member Join Date Sep 2005 Location New York, NY Posts 1,718
Collectors Edition Yellow 2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6

you will love the heads. lol

you think you get your ass planted now, oh buddy, just you wait.

LOL you make it sound so much mnore tempting. Now i really cant wait muhahahah So what do you think with the heads milled plus the cam all tuned around 420-430rwhp and 400-410rwtq??

SuperSlow01 Join Date Feb 2007 Location North Carolina Posts 17
Rally Red 2001 Camaro SS M6

Senior Member Join Date Apr 2007 Location TN Posts 1,202
2005 GTO M6 Black 2000 Z28 A4 Red

I kept hearing with the MS4 that fly cutting the pistons might be an issue, which is why I got the MS3. I haven't gotten everything in and installed yet but when I do in a few weeks I'll post it up. MS3 is only a little smaller than the MS4 237/242 and .603/.609 so Its a little large but with my 3600 stall I'll be alright especially when the bottle is activated .

Visualize°Design°Create Join Date Dec 2005 Location DFW Posts 9,285
'18 CTS-V '13 ZL1

LOL you make it sound so much mnore tempting. Now i really cant wait muhahahah So what do you think with the heads milled plus the cam all tuned around 420-430rwhp and 400-410rwtq??

why would you mill the heads? that could lead to the possibility of you having to flycut the pistons for PTV clearance. more time, money and resources spent. then you have the issue of using gaskets of the correct thinkness to work will milled heads, etc. can it be done, yes it can be. all i am doing is asking you why you'd want to mill.

yes i know that milling the heads will bump up your CR, but you wont really gain that much. the Patriots that i have are 59cc chambers and have bumped up my CR to about 11.1:1. but it needs to be known that Patriot welds up their Ls6 style heads to achieve this, not milling down the heads like other companies do.

you about right in terms of gains to around 420-430rwhp, and TQ about the same as well.

Senior Member Join Date Sep 2005 Location New York, NY Posts 1,718
Collectors Edition Yellow 2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6

why would you mill the heads? that could lead to the possibility of you having to flycut the pistons for PTV clearance. more time, money and resources spent. then you have the issue of using gaskets of the correct thinkness to work will milled heads, etc. can it be done, yes it can be. all i am doing is asking you why you'd want to mill.

yes i know that milling the heads will bump up your CR, but you wont really gain that much. the Patriots that i have are 59cc chambers and have bumped up my CR to about 11.1:1. but it needs to be known that Patriot welds up their Ls6 style heads to achieve this, not milling down the heads like other companies do.

you about right in terms of gains to around 420-430rwhp, and TQ about the same as well.

Reason being for the milling is i was told that milling the 66cc afr's to 63-62cc will help with the CR and give some more ponies. I just wanna get the most outta the heads. i was never aware of fly cutting the pistons cuz im not up to that yet. What i was "TOLD" was millilg would be about $400 or so and would give an extra 10-15RWHP but if i need to go to all of that trouble and sacrifice my well build DD then screw it i dont have to mill em if i wont get much and it will cost a alot.

Pathelogical Liar Join Date Aug 2006 Location Missouri Age 36 Posts 1,476
Black 94 Camaro Z28

Plus, with increasing the CR, you have to watch detonation.

Senior Member Join Date Sep 2005 Location New York, NY Posts 1,718
Collectors Edition Yellow 2002 Pontiac Trans AM WS6

I kno im aware of that. Seems now that milling is more hassle and money then what its worth. And i dont know what the numbers for milling would be but i probably wouldnt even get much xtra HP

Senior Member Join Date Apr 2007 Location TN Posts 1,202
2005 GTO M6 Black 2000 Z28 A4 Red

Well not without manditory use of race gas anyway. I'm sure paying 5$ a gal for race gas will add to your overall cost quite a bit.

no more 4th gen Join Date Jun 2006 Location St. Louis, Missouri Age 35 Posts 2,460
Pewter 2000 z28

you will be much happier with what you currently have. going to that MS4 means you are going to a 'peak power' cam. there is no 'under the curve power' with a cam that size. you have no power until 5000rpm up to 7000rpm. are you really going to be spending your time driving that car daily at those rpm's? bigger isnt better and people with smaller cams can/have beat guys who run bigger cams because they have the power under the curve (usable power). personally i think it would be a waste of time, money and resources for you to go to that cam.

as usual, right on the mark.

also just to note, i have a buddy with the magic stick 4. he fly cut the pistons to be safe. i recommend doing it as a preventative measure. i have heard from a few credible sources that the magic stick 4 is quite a pain to tune correctly and for peak hp. not sure why because i think its just a question of retarding the timing a bit. but i have no idea, didnt have time to get the reasons.

to the O.P. no one is trying to shun you away from big lift cams and there peak potential, its just a question of what you will use. cams like the magic stick 4 have a rather narrow operating range and its not optimal for the street. if i had a weekend track star i would bore the ls1 .30 over and get a cam similar in size to the MS4 on a 110 lsa. but that isnt the case. im daily driving my z and occasionally tracking it. but the street is where i need the power. you just have to ask yourself and be honest about it. where is your car going to be the majority of the time?

Senior Member Join Date Apr 2007 Location TN Posts 1,202
2005 GTO M6 Black 2000 Z28 A4 Red

Artists often incorporate this grid into their works to create a sense of order and harmony. It is considered a symbol of cosmic balance and represents the interconnectedness of all things. While the Magic Square of Saturn has its roots in astrology and mysticism, it has also found its way into mathematics and puzzle-solving. The concept of magic squares has intrigued mathematicians for centuries, and they continue to study and explore the various properties of these grids. In conclusion, the Magic Square of Saturn is a powerful and symbolic tool that has been used in multiple disciplines, including astrology, magic, art, and mathematics. Its unique arrangement of numbers and the balance it represents make it a valuable tool for spiritual practices and inspiration..

Reviews for "How the Magic Square of Saturn influenced ancient cultures and religions"

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The Magic Square of Saturn: a window into the celestial realm