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The Matou's magic is absorption and binding, and is water magecraft. The Matou alignment is said to be water several times. This is the reason Zouken forcibly changed her to it.

And, don t claim that it s merely water , and that sort of magic is a special case of it, because it is stated by Sakura in the game that the results of her magic will always return to her body , in other words being a Matou means that you can t use anything but absorbtion and binding magic. They wouldn t, however, gain a new affinity, or have a significant edge on learning new spells they aren t naturally inclined towards being able to use.

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Nasuverse A Change of Philosophy

Some time before the Fifth Holy Grail War, but after Kiritsugu died, a mad Philosopher experiments on Shirou, and several other people in Fuyuki who he thinks won't be missed (by anyone who can stop him), transplanting Magic Circuits from others who won't be missed, into them, and teaching any survivors how to open those circuits (as opposed to what Shirou was doing in canon, turning his nerves into temporary circuits).

Shirou is one of the survivors, and while not the most powerful Master in the upcoming War, he is now far from the weakest, and may well know who some other the other magi in Fuyuki are.

If Matou Shinji was used (I could see Zouken renting him out, to see if it made him useful), I suggest that he did not survive.? Ayako might be one of the survivors, though, and Taiga with magecraft could be interesting.

I suggest that the Philosopher be dead by the time the Fifth War starts, possibly killed by Shirou, when he finds out about all the people who've been crippled or killed by this nut.? A Shirou who has already killed a person, would behave rather differently from the fool he was in canon, no?

I could totally see Shirou teaching Taiga and Ayako Reinforcement magic, and then the three of them heading out to murderize the heck out of the Philosopher with their Reinforced weapons.

I doubt Tohsaka would take nicely to it if she found out about the Philosopher active on her land, though, and would probably take steps to end him independantly of Shirou and company.

Hmm, that could lead to her rescuing them, if she finds out early enough, which will lead to a different set of relationships by the time the War comes around.

When canon kills your Suspension of Disbelief, but you still like (or at least, care what happens to) some or all of the characters, all you have left is fanon.

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)

Would Rin, age 10, actually be able to do anything about it though? Or have the skills to detect it even if it did happen?

And don't forget Kotomine. heck, he could have been the one that invited the philosopher, for the sake of creating better "batteries" for Gilgamesh. He might invite the guy, then turn around and murder him and use that research to power-up Gil. Just report that he took care of the guy, and nobody would be the wiser.

I wonder if a place like Fuyuki that's the site of a lot of magical conflict and high-level thaumaturgy would tend to create more people that have circuits. Like an environmental stimulus for the development of magic. Of course, isn't it also supposed to sit at a nexus of ley lines? So it's probably an excellent site to go if you want to gather non-magus who have strong circuits.

The transplant of magic circuits is pretty well-studied; that's the whole Crest thing. But, it's supposed to be like transplanting an organ, there's a chance of rejection if it's not compatible. A Philosopher might be trying to quantify that to see if you could create, like, pseudo-Crests in a population of "sheep" that would serve as a source of circuits for those pseudo-Crests, that could then be transplanted into a magus.

Actually. there's another consideration. Emiya Kiritsugu would have been somewhat famous, but he wasn't a member of any association, and he burned pretty much the only bridge he had. Perhaps a philosopher would deliberately target Shiro on the assumption that here's a magus who has a Crest, but without friends or allies to protest if experiments are done on him. Of course, when he finds out that Shiro doesn't have the Emiya Crest. hmm.

I'm not sure how I feel about Ayako and Taiga. They're. they're background noise, really. Having them actually go through these sorts of trials would probably make them nearly unrecognizable? I dunno. And Taiga's got some family connections. a lot of people would be looking for her, even if those people are muggles.

Thematically, I'd be tempted to make Shirou the sole survivor again. Take the desire to be a hero, and color it with bloodthirst, and the need to avenge the fallen; all that survivor's guilt, bury it under hatred for magus who discount human lives. Take the ideal of "a hero that protects justice" and darken it to "a monster who kills evil monsters", using the dark power called magic, to defeat magus.

A Shiro that finds out about the Grail War, and his first feeling, his first reaction, could only be called "rage." Then the hot rush would end, and he would swear to himself to destroy all of the Masters who so callously turn a city into a battlefield without even a shred of concern for the civilians of the city.

Or they get saved by a Kuzuki that stumbles across the scene and punches the mad dude dead. That could be interesting too.

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member

Would Rin, age 10, actually be able to do anything about it though? Or have the skills to detect it even if it did happen?

I don't understand how you think Rin would be ten. The only time estimation I gave was in the first sentence of the OP: "Some time before the Fifth Holy Grail War, but after Kiritsugu died." That's a range of several years. The rest of your post is interesting, though.

When canon kills your Suspension of Disbelief, but you still like (or at least, care what happens to) some or all of the characters, all you have left is fanon.

Muramasa

Well-Known Member

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member

Yeah, his stability depends on factors not mentioned, like whether anyone is able to convince him to share the burden of his pain, something he seems disinclined to do. Of course, if someone gets kidnapped with him and survives, they might be willing to help each other.

Also, he and Sakura might be able to help each other, but first, they'd need to be willing to talk about their problems, which would not be easy.

When canon kills your Suspension of Disbelief, but you still like (or at least, care what happens to) some or all of the characters, all you have left is fanon.

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member

When canon kills your Suspension of Disbelief, but you still like (or at least, care what happens to) some or all of the characters, all you have left is fanon.

lask

Well-Known Member

No way to know. Anything born of Shirou is going to take is flavor from his alignment of Swords, but Swords is a big estate - you could go all over the place with it. Plus, if it's about creating psudo-creasts, then it might contain magic Shirou wouldn't be able to normally learn.

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member

If he had a crest that has spells that he could never learn in it, then he wouldn't be able to cast those spells using the crest.

If a spell is specifically made by someone with Fire to be cast by them, then someone who's of another alignment could never cast it unless they recreated the spell to be cast by that alignment. There's a reason Zouken had to forcibly change Sakura to the water alignment, because otherwise she wouldn't have been able to use any of the Matou magecraft. The only people who get around this are Average Ones like Rin.

Not that it matters in this idea, since as I understand it they're only crests in the sense that they're magic circuits. They don't have any actual spells inscribed into them.

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member

If he had a crest that has spells that he could never learn in it, then he wouldn't be able to cast those spells using the crest.

If a spell is specifically made by someone with Fire to be cast by them, then someone who's of another alignment could never cast it unless they recreated the spell to be cast by that alignment. There's a reason Zouken had to forcibly change Sakura to the water alignment, because otherwise she wouldn't have been able to use any of the Matou magecraft. The only people who get around this are Average Ones like Rin.

Not that it matters in this idea, since as I understand it they're only crests in the sense that they're magic circuits. They don't have any actual spells inscribed into them.

I'm pretty sure that's not true, actually. If it was, then Magic Crests would be largely useless, since alignments are not always passed down the family line (Tokiomi was a fire magus, whilst Sakura was a shadow magus). I mean, by your logic Sakura couldn't have inherited the Tohsaka Crest (at least not usefully), since she would not share Tokiomi's alignment. Further, had Zouken obtained Rin and not Sakura, your logic means that he could have just passed the Crest onto her without needing to first change her to a Matou, which is quite simply ridiculous.

It's true that a magus cannot usually inherit the Magic Crest or use the magic of a family which they're not related to, but in general that has nothing to do with their alignment, but rather the particular attributes of their magic. For instance, Sakura, as a Tohsaka, would naturally be good at transmitting energy (i.e. jewel magecraft), whereas to use Matou magic she needed to be good at absorbtion (or whatever it is that the Matou magic is called. ).

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member

CM3 says that different alignments make different spells. Shirou's reinforcement is not the same spell as Rin's reinforcement or Kotomine's reinforcement.

The Matou's magic is absorption and binding, and is water magecraft. The Matou alignment is said to be water several times. This is the reason Zouken forcibly changed her to it. Why bother if the spells in the crest were neutral and could immediately be used by any alignment to the same effectiveness?

The attributes of the magus? What do you think the alignment is? The Tohsaka magecraft is jewels because that's what Nagato learned from Zelretch.

Also, I never said that Rin could get a crest without trouble. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said she could cast any spell straight from her crest regardless of alignment because she's an Average One, and that's what they do. They wouldn't be so amazing if alignment didn't matter so much.

Master of Squirrel-Fu

Well-Known Member

Would Archer be from this future or the canon future? If it's from canon than his reaction to this Shiro would be interesting, if he's from this fics future I wonder how he would take be the servent of a mage.

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member

CM3 says that different alignments make different spells. Shirou's reinforcement is not the same spell as Rin's reinforcement or Kotomine's reinforcement.

It's stated that different alignments enact the same spell in different ways, not that they're necessarily actually different spells altogether.

The Matou's magic is absorption and binding, and is water magecraft. The Matou alignment is said to be water several times. This is the reason Zouken forcibly changed her to it.

Because she needed the Matou alignment, which is absorbtion and binding. And, don't claim that it's merely "water", and that sort of magic is a special case of it, because it is stated by Sakura in the game that the results of her magic will always "return to her body", in other words being a Matou means that you can't use anything but absorbtion and binding magic.

Why bother if the spells in the crest were neutral and could immediately be used by any alignment to the same effectiveness?

For one thing, Zouken needed to change her in order that she could inherit the Crest, but regardless she needed the Matou absorbtion and binding attribute (not the water attribute, that was simply a side-effect).

Zouken states that Sakura's body was suited to the magic of the Tohsaka family. But, since she did not share the alignment of either her father or sister, if that the alignment were all that mattered then she would be no more suited to the Tohsaka magecraft than she was to the Matou magecraft, so what he said would not have been true.

OK, then, if that's true, what is the alignment of the Tohsaka family? We know of three Tohsaka magi, one of which is a fire magus, one of which is an Average One and one of which is a Shadow user. So, what is their family alignment?

No, it's not. They have the special ability of transferring energy, which most magi cannot do, and it's specific to the Tohsaka family. It's not something just anyone could pick up. Shirou, for instance, had no idea that the Jewelled Sword was anything but a nice-looking lump of rock.

Also, I never said that Rin could get a crest without trouble. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said she could cast any spell straight from her crest regardless of alignment because she's an Average One, and that's what they do. They wouldn't be so amazing if alignment didn't matter so much.

But the whole point of a Crest is that you can cast any spell straight from it. A Magic Crest would be a total waste of time for the majority of magi if they could only cast spells on it that were of their element, because most of the spells on there would be inaccessible.

In particular, going by your logic Sakura couldn't have used any of the Tohsaka crest had she been the heir. And, yet, that was never stated by Tokiomi as being any kind of issue, and it was stated by Zouken that she was suited to being a Tohsaka magus.

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member

Given that this Shirou has implanted circuits from many other people, he could potentially have an Elemental Affinity, something canon Shirou effectively lacks (though his Origin would still be Sword, due to Avalon, and his alignment would probably still be Sword), as Sakura has two affinities, due to Zouken's interference. He might even become an Average One, like Rin.

The same is reasonable for other survivors, if any (apart from the presence of Avalon, of course, which is why Shirou is so much more likely to survive than anyone else). I wonder how Rin would react if all the survivors became Average Ones (if there are more than one). That's something the Mages' Association would be very interested in, no?

When canon kills your Suspension of Disbelief, but you still like (or at least, care what happens to) some or all of the characters, all you have left is fanon.

lask

Well-Known Member

Considering that they would all represent the work of a sealing designate, I would expect at least one surviver to be claimed as part of the philosopher's research.

Avider

Well-Known Member

Magus alignment = Element

I could see how you would be confused from TM Wikia's wording, but it's saying the same thing there too.

Things like Einzbern's Wish Making ability, the Fraga clan's Tradition Carrier/Godsholder, Matou's binding and the rest, those are Thaumaturgical Traits.

Of which is also Imaginary Numbers. which is also an element.

Not to say that all traits are elements/alignments, not to say that they aren't either.

Well technically. blah it doesn't really matter, this works well enough.

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member

Magus alignment = Element

I could see how you would be confused from TM Wikia's wording, but it's saying the same thing there too.

Things like Einzbern's Wish Making ability, the Fraga clan's Tradition Carrier/Godsholder, Matou's binding and the rest, those are Thaumaturgical Traits.

Of which is also Imaginary Numbers. which is also an element.

Not to say that all traits are elements/alignments, not to say that they aren't either.

Well technically. blah it doesn't really matter, this works well enough.

Well, OK, I might be getting the terminology wrong, but it's the trait that Zouken wanted to give Sakura, not the elemental affinity. Changing her elemental affinity was just a side-effect.

Like I said, if a magus couldn't use spells on the Magic Crest without being of the appropriate alignment, then Sakura would have been a totally useless magus without conversion, since she couldn't have used any of the spells on the Crest even if she inherited it, and she couldn't add any useful spells to it either, and Magic Crests in general would be a lot less useful, for the same reason. Plus, you'd have magi torturing their children to convert them to the family alignment on a regular basis, which isn't supported by known canon.

B.B. Rain

Well-Known Member

First off, once the Philosopher discovers Shirou lacks the Emiya Crest fragment Kiritsugu had, is there any possibility he could retrieve it from Kiritsugu's body? I mean, was he cremated or what, and if so, could the author handwave-change it having been buried, and not having decomposed or dispersed or whatever to leave the Crest intact enough for transplanting?

On to the argument about Crests and their capabilities.

To start, a Crest is a conglomeration of multiple Circuits altered, forged, and preserved into a single meta-physical/mystical organism/item/organ. Quite different from untrained/unused Circuits harvested off of individuals and transplanted, one-by-one, into someone equally untrained.

The article states that a sufficiently stable and properly integrated Crest allows its user to cast any spell stored within it, irregardless of their having learned it. Channel energy into the Crest, find the spell, activate it with the Incantation and Thaumaturgical Process, use the spell.

I haven't found thaumaturgical process as a distinct article, rather something repeatedly mentioned. Likewise, I wasn't able to find something clearly stating, one-way or another, how Elemental Affinity restricted or enabled spellcasting.

I get the impression, however, that it's possible to learn and/or perform various spells with a specific elemental connection, irregardless or personal Element. It's just really, really, really difficult, so as to be effectively impossible, or at least extremely impractical, to be proficient in magical processes or abilities, which would allow mages to create new spells, or modify existing ones, or perform complex non-spell works of magecraft related to a specific element.

This would mean, however, that it's possible to perform spells in a rote fashion, and more importantly to the discussion, it would allow a magi to cast a spell they aren't elementally aligned with just by channeling power into their Crest and repeating a standard incantation. They wouldn't, however, be able to use the more impressive benefits of the Crest, which is an accumulation of theoretical knowledge, experience, skill, and practiced capability, allowing successive generations of magi to skip years or decades of practice at the basic and intermediate levels of a magical field, and instead use their lifespans to further advance their families understanding of whatever goal of field of research they're focused on, eventually allowing a successive descendant to achieve a pinnacle work in their own lifetime.

I specifically believe this based upon my understanding of Emiya Kiritsugu's Innate Time Control. A very complicated application of magecraft towards a specific goal, based upon his family's research into time manipulation, which he is capable of despite having only a portion of the Emiya Family Crest. The combination of his familial affinity, and the knowledge and aptitude they gained from their research for four or five generations (Kiritsugu's father being the Fourth Head of the family) which remained in their Crest, however fragmented Kiritsugu's inherited portion actually was, allowed him to create a complex specific ability/spell that his ancestors hadn't actually encoded into the Crest.

A random Magus receiving another family's Crest, however, wouldn't have the inherited (possibly bred for) affinity and aptitude towards the more complex family research, allowing them to merely reproduce existing spells, rather then applying concepts, ability, and understanding developed by others to create new spells and further understanding, or rather levels of capability, for a subsequent generation to inherit. They'd be able to access the research, but they wouldn't be capable of completely understanding, continuing, or directly applying it, making it almost worthless fr them except as a starting point to reshape their own families goals and start from a slightly better-informed scratch.

To back away from my explanatory soapbox, and get to how this would effect the existing argument, I believe that a Thaumaturgical Crest would allow a magi to cast spells stored within the Crest, regardless of their affinity. They wouldn't, however, gain a new affinity, or have a significant edge on learning new spells they aren't naturally inclined towards being able to use.

Transplanted general Circuits, which were the point of the OP, wouldn't carry any affinity either. More importantly, they would hold no spells, understanding or capability to grant the magi, merely being additional channels for power and spells the magi would have to supply themselves.

As I understand it, Circuits channel Prana, rather then generating or storing it, so this would not actually increase a Magi's power so much as increasing their ability to channel and use it.

Further, since it is already possible to artificially transfer circuits from magi to magi, it's unlikely that this Philosopher would be researching how to do that.

Rather, I'd assume he/she/it would be attempting to come up with a way of allowing safe transplantation between naturally incompatible magi. Like how organ transplants could theoretically be conducted by using immunosupressants to adapt an organ to a different bodytype, and vice versa (P.S. not a doctor, no idea if this is valid or wrong or already in practice rather then theoretical, or what). A way of preventing the body from reacting negatively and rejecting the new circuit, but rather integrate and become capable of fully using it.

Or, given that number of Circuits is less important then the quality and precision of the Circuits (see the Aozaki and Barthomeloi bloodlines), this Philosopher could be looking to come up with a way of switching low-quality Circuits for more capable ones, to produce one superior magi at the expense of several others who had better circuits.

Or use the circuits of other (donor) magi to artificially strengthen and improve the existing circuits of a recipient magi, thus allowing them to be more capable then they could otherwise possibly be.

Or something else.

Anyway, hope something I've typed helps resolve the argument, or improve the story this idea could become, or both.

Because she needed the Matou alignment, which is absorbtion and binding. And, don't claim that it's merely "water", and that sort of magic is a special case of it, because it is stated by Sakura in the game that the results of her magic will always "return to her body", in other words being a Matou means that you can't use anything but absorbtion and binding magic.

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