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112.1. A spell is a card on the stack. As the first step of being cast (see rule 601, “Casting Spells”), the card becomes a spell and is moved to the top of the stack from the zone it was in, which is usually its owner’s hand. (See rule 405, “Stack.”) [..]
If that is so, I will stop trying to make social spellcasting work because my DM and I both have strong views on the subject and discord is not ideal when playing table-top RPGs. I will try and cover the bases as best I can with some advice even though this is the Rules forum and maybe you can use it to come to a fair conclusion yourself.
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Do you know a spell was cast on you?
Alright, so this comes up a lot between my DM and I. Here is the situation: one way or the other, the target of the spell did not realize a spell was cast (this can be because of darkness, greater invisibility, Conceal Spell, etc.). If the spell cast has no noticeable effects and either does not allow a saving throw or the target fails its saving throw, does the target know a spell was cast on them?
I am under the effect of Greater Invisibility, and I cast Ill Omen on someone. Do they know they just received a debuff?
I use the feat Conceal Spell, which basically lets me cast spells without people noticing if they fail their skill check, to cast Charm Person on the person I am speaking to. They fail their saving throw. Do they know I cast a spell on them? Will they be hostile to me after the spell ends?
Thanks for your help!
A DC 25+spell level Knowledge Arcana check will let you identify a spell targeting you, even if you didn’t get the chance at a Spellcraft.
Creatures are aware of having to make saving throws, so you would know something is up even if you can’t place the effect. After a Charm Person you’d likely realize you failed a save and then acted weirdly friendly towards X person after it. For other spells like Ill Omen, the rules are largely silent about how “aware” a creature is about the effects affecting them. A GM call for sure.
call1me1sandwich wrote:Here is the situation: one way or the other, the target of the spell did not realize a spell was cast (this can be because of darkness, greater invisibility, Conceal Spell, etc.).
None of those conceal that a spell has been cast, with the possible exception of conceal spell. But even that feat don't say exactly that, it say:
"so others don’t realize you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability until it is too late.
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If an opponent fails its check, your casting also does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and an opponent that fails its check can’t use readied actions that depend on realizing that you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability, or readied actions such as counterspelling that require identifying the spell you’re casting."
In all other instances this FAQ apples:
call1me1sandwich wrote:What exactly do I identify when I’m using Spellcraft to identify a spell? Is it the components, since spell-like abilities, for instance, don’t have any? If I can only identify components, would that mean that I can’t take an attack of opportunity against someone using a spell-like ability (or spell with no verbal, somatic, or material components) or ready an action to shoot an arrow to disrupt a spell-like ability? If there’s something else, how do I know what it is?
Although this isn’t directly stated in the Core Rulebook, many elements of the game system work assuming that all spells have their own manifestations, regardless of whether or not they also produce an obvious visual effect, like fireball. You can see some examples to give you ideas of how to describe a spell’s manifestation in various pieces of art from Pathfinder products, but ultimately, the choice is up to your group, or perhaps even to the aesthetics of an individual spellcaster, to decide the exact details. Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation. Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.
posted October 2015 | back to top
EXAMPLES:
I am under the effect of Greater Invisibility, and I cast Ill Omen on someone. Do they know they just received a debuff?[/quote+
They someone in that square did something magic. They need a successfull spellcraft or knowledge arcana check to know what was done.
call1me1sandwich wrote:I use the feat Conceal Spell, which basically lets me cast spells without people noticing if they fail their skill check, to cast Charm Person on the person I am speaking to. They fail their saving throw. Do they know I cast a spell on them? Will they be hostile to me after the spell ends?
As I read conceal spell and charm person, they will, after the spell has been completed, know that something magical happened. If charmed they will not link it to you and/or they will not feel that it is something harmful.
How they will react after the charm end depend on the on the initial reaction and what happened during the charm. If what happened is similar enough to the effect if a successful diplomacy check they could fail to notice that they where magically influenced, if it is the opposite of their normal behavior they will notice immediately that something happened and probably will be furious.
FAQ observation:In regards to the FAQ that states spells have detectable manifestations. I believe it's been taken out-of-context by a few people and used to paint broad strokes that spells are super visible. For example, some people have tried to claim that invisibility surrounds you with an air of crackling power, or silence gives off humming vibrations in the air. Not saying anyone here has implied it, just want to prevent a future reader from misinterpreting it.
FAQ is meant to be taken directly in response to its question, which, in this case, is specifically about identifying a spell with Spellcraft. When read in context, it can be taken to mean that even an untrained person seeing a spell being cast can tell that the action is casting a spell, whether they can identify it or not, or whether they know the difference between divine and arcane. It indicates that even a 'mundane' or common person won't confuse your casting with you just prancing about and making gobbledygook noises (unless using a skill or ability that lets you do that).
The part about generating manifestations of some kind is meant to be a hand-wave that even if there's no visible material component, or string of magical words, or gesturing that a person can sense the influx of gathering magic and, if trained in Spellcraft, potentially 'read' the flow of energies to identify it. If they aren't, they still feel/see/hear/note/etc. something that indicates it's a spell being cast (as long as they can observe it in some way). If they can't, they can't; you don't detect a spell from some guy on the other side of the planet without some way to detect it.
As for showing visible effects of spells in artwork. well. that's how it shows up. I mean, you could show artwork of an empty room next to the invisibility spell, but that's not really as artistic or meaningful as showing a room with an orc peering around it and an 'invisible' figure indicated by a dotted-line outline, even though the first example would be visually accurate. That doesn't mean casters using invisibility appear as dotted-line wire-frame figures. Similarly, showing a violet aura around a mage to indicate a magic shield is just cool and appropriate to indicate that they are surrounded by an arcane aura, even if the specific spell doesn't give a visual effect (like, it says it's an 'invisible' or 'intangible' field of force). We aren't typically expected to be able to smell or hear the manifestation, or psychically sense it on the page or website we're viewing, but I am getting a bit ranty here.
Basically, it's there to give a reason, however nebulous, that there's no penalty or change to Spellcraft DCs based on components being visible (or just not being part of that spell) and ones with all three or even more components. It's not meant to imply that a person who's been charmed has a rosy pink aura or that a person who is confused has question marks hovering his head. The FAQ applies to its specific reference and situation. It has the scope it says it has: no more, no less.
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I am under the effect of Greater Invisibility, and I cast Ill Omen on someone. Do they know they just received a debuff?
Okay, understand that I am just offering help with your direct question. There are so many spells that may or may not have visible effects or their own manifestations or unique characteristics. I am talking about your specific question, not making some broad, game-spanning one-size-fits-all answer. I will try and cover the bases as best I can with some advice (even though this is the Rules forum) and maybe you can use it to come to a fair conclusion yourself.
First, the base-line:
1) You cast ill-omen normally: Target sees you casting spell, you are probably looking at them or doing something that allows you to indicate your target (even if you have no verbal, somatic, or material components). If they have no Spellcraft, they don't know what you're casting but they know you're casting, not necessarily at them (unless you're pointing obviously). If they pass their save, they sense a hostile tingle (by the rules, since it has no other obvious effect) and that's usually a clear indication based on the evidence that you are casting at them. If they fail, there is no indication that you cast a spell on them (but they did see you casting a spell, it just could have been something that wasn't harmful, or was targeted elsewhere, or was personal).
2) You are under greater invisibility and you cast ill omen: If there's something that the target can observe (in this example, that likely means 'hear', if you have verbal components), then they receive a Spellcraft to identify the spell you are casting. Either way, they get their save. If the target passes, they sense a tingle, they know something tried to affect them (as per the rules for a spell with no other obvious effect) and if they passed the Spellcraft, they'd know 'someone' tried to cast ill omen They don't know that 'you' tried to cast on them (unless they know you are hanging around invisibly or something). If they fail, they get no indication that they failed but they know they heard (or otherwise detected) something being cast.
3) You are [under some effect or circumstance that makes the target unable to discern or detect any part of your spellcasting] and cast ill omen: The target gets a save. If they pass, they feel a tingle and know they fought off a hostile effect. They don't know that it was a spell (or just a triggered magic effect) or the fear aura of a nearby creature or whatever. They just know there was a hostile force attacking their mind. If they fail, they get no indication that they failed or that there was an attempt on them (ie. they don't get a little 'cursed' icon or message on their HUD display).
4) You've cast ill omen and the creature is not aware of it: They don't know that their next d20 is 'ill-fated'. When they make their next check (assuming the results are visible, observable, or otherwise of a nature that a person could quantify them reasonably), they could stop and consider what could have caused the results, and this could allow them to make a Knowledge (arcana) check (per the rules) which is DC 20 + spell level (a little tougher than identifying with Spellcraft when you can deduce from the casting what it is, rather than trying to guess from countless spells what might have caused your save failure; was it a penalty, was it curse. and what spells out of all existence could possibly give penalties, etc.) If they pass, they can figure out the details and (as per the spell, since they're aware and know the details), could take steps to mitigate it (either doing inconsequential d20's until it discharges or doing the prayer thing). If they fail, they may be aware that something affected them (not whether they still are or not), but not its details (as per the spell's requirement), so they can't deduce that future d20 rolls might be in jeopardy; other than blind guessing, which in the case of players would be metagaming and in the case of NPCs would be kind of going against the mechanics, unless they spot you and have seen you do this thing before to others or themselves.
I use the feat Conceal Spell . to cast Charm Person on the person I am speaking to. They fail their saving throw. Do they know I cast a spell on them?
The premise of your question is that you succeed on casting with Conceal Spell. The person you are talking to will perceive your spellcasting actions as something else. Your verbal component will be just conversation or words mixed into your dialogue (or monologue). Your gestures were mistaken for scratching, emphasizing, fidgeting, or just non-magical gestures. They failed their save, there is no indication that they receive an alert or a tingle or any warning of a mental effect, ie. there's no 'charmed' stamp across their field of vision or a little heart icon or face icon with hearts for eyes on their status bar. They just know that you're a trusted friend (even if they just met you.)
For argument's sake, let's assume the target realizes they're charmed somewhere along the line. Let's say this person is just naturally super-suspicious and always questions whenever he treats someone nicely (this is not a typical outlook, since most people don't ask why they're nice to their trusted friends, which is what he considers you). So he stops and inexplicably asks himself why he's being so nice. He might get a Knowledge Arcana check to note the charm person effect (while there's nothing to really observe normally, presumably, he at least, can be considered a valid observer of his own behavior, but again this is just for example purposes and is far from considered a normal response). Even if he passes and realizes there's a charm effect on him. he'll probably think "Well, he must've had a good reason to do it," and shrug it off, because you're a trusted friend.
Quote:Will they be hostile to me after the spell ends?
If they are normally hostile, yes. If they are treated badly, they will remember it and, while hostile is a specific term and outlook, they probably won't like it or trust you in the future. If they didn't realize that they were charmed (because they didn't for whatever reason) and you treated them well, they will react to you like any other person who treated them well (and has the same characteristics as you, ie. gender, race, appearance, rank), ie. if they don't like elves in any case, they're not going to like you unless magically coerced again. They may be puzzled as to why they were nice the last time (and may even suspect that you're some 'elven witch' that ensorcelled them, but that's just a self-serving reason for their already existing dislike (though it could be true in this case).
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Pizza, wile I agree with you that, after the spell has been cast there aren't signs of its existence unless that is specified by the spell or some other rule (like the interference between long lasting abjuration spells), but the rules and FAQ about recognizing a spell with spellcasting are very clear: you always get a spellcraft check, so there is always a perceptible effect when a spell is cast, even if the caster use a silent spell while invisible.
The spellcraft check will be more difficult as you apply the perception modifiers to the spellcraft check, but you still know that a spell has been cast (barring special abilities that say something different).
Thank you all. Diego Rossi and Pizza Lord, you both say very different things. Does this mean the subject is still debated in the community and hence up to DM discretion?
If that is so, I will stop trying to make social spellcasting work because my DM and I both have strong views on the subject and discord is not ideal when playing table-top RPGs.
A DC 25+spell level Knowledge Arcana check will let you identify a spell targeting you, even if you didn’t get the chance at a Spellcraft.
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