The Secrets of Occult Spell for Fast and Strong Graphene Production

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Occult Wizard?

Anyone think that Wizards should have an option in the class whether to be an Arcane Caster or an Occult Caster?

Should be pretty easily modded: Occult Casters would get Occult instead of Arcana as a class skill. We can leave the strange mutations to the Sorcerer class.

wizard is the epitome of the character that went for arcane studies and wants to learn the secrets of magic in the 'classical' way

I think it is pretty good as it is - for only exchanging the class skill and the spell list the wizard would actually loose out in most matters

I get why you'd want Wizards to choose, and flavourfully it makes sense ("I study weird magic," rather than "I study traditional magic"), but I think that it would dilute the essence of the Wizard. Maybe they've become too typecast into book-smart nerds, but arcane magic is the "logical" kind of magic, IMHO the only one that can be studied, and basically bruteforced. Yeah, you can study occult magic, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can replicate it. For some reason, arcane magic has some structure to it that allows others to copy it, and occult magic is simply too chaotic for that. Considering the types of creatures that use occult magic, you might simply lack the number or kinds of limbs necessary to perform it.

Plus, that would also open the door for "why can't I have a nature-loving Wizard that isn't a Druid?" While I understand the desire for more options, I think Wizards are fine where they are. Witches can choose their spell lists, and they're already kinda stepping on the Sorcerer's toes. While the different schools can make the Wizard a little more distinct, too much overlap makes the classes one big homogeneous mass.

wizard is the epitome of the character that went for arcane studies and wants to learn the secrets of magic in the 'classical' way

I think it is pretty good as it is - for only exchanging the class skill and the spell list the wizard would actually loose out in most matters

I'm considering on how many times you see in movies and books where the magic being learned is "occult" brand of magic. Yes, the Occult magic is "learned" through study and books, and not an innate magic. Ghoulies from 1984, Cthulhu mythos and etc. An occult wizard makes a lot of sense in that scenario, both as protagonists and antagonists.

Seriously, there needs to be both a Wizard and/or Cleric versions that use Occult, so you get the full Ancient God Magic.

Occult Witch.

Yea, witches use familiars. I'm still talking "book" learning and memorization.

Personally, I think we've established that all the traditions are interchangeable in terms of power balance. That's not the way wizards work in Lost Omens, but make your game and your setting what you like.

The Occultist filled the wizardly role of using using scholarly investigation to uncover the secrets of wyrd magicks in PF1. I'd rather see that come back (probably under the moniker Antiquarian for the same reason Wizard isn't called Arcanist).

Well it's always possible for a future class archetype to happen that change the list to occult or a special mental list.

The Occultist filled the wizardly role of using using scholarly investigation to uncover the secrets of wyrd magicks in PF1. I'd rather see that come back (probably under the moniker Antiquarian for the same reason Wizard isn't called Arcanist).

For some reason, I feel like the Antiquarian should have special abilities around making use of magical items - like a feat where if you had a magic item that was capable of casting a spell, you could recharge it during refocus by sacrificing a prepared spell of your own of appropriate level, or perhaps your lvl 20 haste feat would be for actions that activate magic items and so forth. Possibly a feat that would let them attune more items. I feel like the Antiquarian should have some sort of built-in incentives for walking around with pockets full of weird magical tchotchkes.

Seriously, there needs to be both a Wizard and/or Cleric versions that use Occult, so you get the full Ancient God Magic.

Apart from domains, what would mechanically differentiate a base Cleric from a base Wizard if they both had access to the same spell list? I specify "base," as the feats are obviously geared towards different playstyles.

The witch kind of covers this space. They exist in a lot of the same conceptual space as the Wizard, being an int-based, studious caster that stores magic in a spellbook. their spellbooks are just kind of weird.

Which kind of runs counter to a lot of the claims here imo that it wouldn't make sense.

Plus, that would also open the door for "why can't I have a nature-loving Wizard that isn't a Druid?"

TBH, some kind of Int based "naturalist" that approaches primal magic and other druidic arts more like a biologist sounds cool.

Plus, that would also open the door for "why can't I have a nature-loving Wizard that isn't a Druid?"

TBH, some kind of Int based "naturalist" that approaches primal magic and other druidic arts more like a biologist sounds cool.

You can spin nearly any concept into something cool, but that doesn't mean you should do it. Pathfinder's strength (IMHO) is that all classes feel mechanically unique. Picking and choosing your own spell list runs counter to that, IMHO. Sorcerer getting to choose makes somewhat sense, but the Witch (and now also Summoner) getting to choose blurs that line more and more. Luckily Summmoners have a whole different mechanical identity, but IMHO Witches just feel like an in-between of Sorcerer and Wizard, not their own thing (apart from a Hex cantrip).

The INT-based Biologist could work just as well with a Witch, just refluff your patron, or leave it out altogether.

Yeah, class archetype to remove the mandatory familiar from Witch would fit the niche of several of these characters.

The witch kind of covers this space. They exist in a lot of the same conceptual space as the Wizard, being an int-based, studious caster that stores magic in a spellbook. their spellbooks are just kind of weird.

Which kind of runs counter to a lot of the claims here imo that it wouldn't make sense.

Plus, that would also open the door for "why can't I have a nature-loving Wizard that isn't a Druid?"

TBH, some kind of Int based "naturalist" that approaches primal magic and other druidic arts more like a biologist sounds cool.

Halcyon Speaker seems like this. Though making an Occult Wizard along the Halcyon Speaker approach might make Speaker feel less special.

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With the elementalist class archetype in Secrets of Magic, wizards (matter/mind) have the option to focus more on primal-type (matter/life) spells. A similar class archetype (medium?) to focus on "spooky" occult-type (mind/spirit) spells could something that Paizo can develop.

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Also, a bard with Esoteric Polymath can (sort of) be considered somewhat similar to an occult version of a wizard.

Alternately, instead of a Mask Familiar or a poppet you can always allow a witch to have a "Tome Familiar."

I've mentioned here that the real world definition of the word arcane is what occult magic is described as, and in that basis alone I think a connection between the two uniquely exists, and while I haven't gotten my SoM book yet it appears to some degree paizo agrees since not only are they adjacent but both seem to be the most potent and varied with the largest numbers of spells. I think something should also be said how magic was viewed in the ancient world and that the study of magic is inherently esoteric and occult, especially Christian and Jewish magic(yes these are real things). Wizards themselves, frankly, appear to be inspired more from the stories of people mastering Kabbalah than from pagan ideas of magic. In the real world the four traditions in pathfinder would blend together and where one ends and begins would be hard to say. I have rewrote this several times trying not to get off track and reign my sleep deprivation and ADHD in and not talk about how I think the witch and wizard should be one class, maybe someday I'll get into that, but I do want to say that I think not only should occult be an option for wizards, but that wizards should be "scientists" in the traditional sense and that they should get the option to pluck spells from any tradition to add to their spell list and treat as arcane. A base in arcane I think is still the right move because it's:
-got the most spells
-got most of the best spells

Wizards should be *the* premier spellcaster who's thing is magic and knowing everything about magic. Paizo made it so it's a wizard talking about the four traditions and to me this just shows more and more how wizards would be the ones to cross the boundaries. The arcane skill feat for using arcane for religion, occult, nature as well as arcane also backs this up IMO

I hope I make sense and this is legible/understandable

Wizards deal in cut-and-dried magic. They write magical formulae down in books. Those magical formulae are letting them perform magic.

Occult magic doesn't work off of magical formulae; it works off of the collective hopes and fears and dreams and stories of people.

When an occult caster uses a mystical formula to do magic, it isn't the formula doing something, unlike arcane magic. The caster is tapping into the iconography and symbolism of mystical formulae. It might look like arcane magic to the untrained eye, but that's because "looking like arcane magic" is one of the ways to do occult magic.

Wizards doing occult magic is like casting a real scientist to play a scientist in your movie. Some of them can probably do it, but it'll be frustrating, and what you really want is an actor.

At least, that's my interpretation.

Pretty much. What I gather from the essays in secrets of magic is that yes there's a connection between occult and arcane, moreso than the other traditions. But it's that occult is the art to arcane's science. So I don't think a wizard should have an occult option either, just like I don't think bards should have arcane as an option.

Not in the main classes anyway. I could see adding some archetypes that switch spell lists.

Occult magic doesn't work off of magical formulae; it works off of the collective hopes and fears and dreams and stories of people.

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Accelerating Strong Graphene Production with the Occult Spell Method