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Sorcerer Analysis: Occultism (Part 1)

Now that the playtest pdf is available, I wanted to try and take the time to analyze how well does the sorcerers do when we put them against their fellow spellcasters.

Since the Sorcerers can now be of any tradition, I will try to bring an analysis of how their fare against the main spellcaster of each tradition. Since the Sorcerer spell tradition is a feature that gets locked in at level 1, I want to stay away from the "Sorcerers have choices" since they feel closer to 4 classes with the same dynamic than a single class with 4 options (Druids and bard have options, but they can pick feats from other options after level 1, Sorcerers cannot).

I am probably only going to DM during the playtest, but I would really like some input from players that are going to play both sorcerers and bards during the playtest in order to get their point of view.

In this first post, I will compare the occult sorcerer to the bard and see how we can compare them and the potential of an occult sorcerer. For the rest of the post sorcerer will be used, but should be read as occult sorcerer.

Now let us compare the two classes! (I will add important comments from the discussions at the end of this post if I missed anything important)

Let's be honest, the sorcerer isn't in the best place here.
Hit Points: 6+CON for the sorcerer against 8+CON for the bard
Perception: trained for the sorcerer, expert for the bard
Saving throws: Sorcerer and bard are the same. Trained in Fortitude and Reflex, Expert in Will
Skills: 5+Int for the sorcerer, 7+Int for the bard (and replace some skills with Performance).
Weapons: Trained in simple weapon for the sorcerer, the bard has additionnal training in longsword, rapier, sap, shortsword, shortbow and whip.
Armor: Untrained for all for the sorcerer, trained in light armor and shields for bard.
Spells: Same spell proficiency and advancements.[/b]
Signature Skills: 7 fixed ones for the Bard, 6 with 5 flexible ones for the Sorcerer.
Resonnance pools: Both classes have Charisma as their key ability and should have the same resonnance pool.

The bard here is the clear winner, it has more hit points, skills, more proficiency in weapons and armor. The only advantage that the sorcerer has is a little more flexibility for his signature skills.

Let's bring the interesting comparisons.
Feats: Bards are getting 3 more class feats than sorcerers. Bards are getting additionnal feat at 6th and 10th level and it should also be noted that Muses gives a class feat at level 1, which means that Bard gets 3 additionnal feats compared to the sorcerer. These 3 feats are being replaced with bloodline powers.

Powers: Both sorcerers and bard get Spell points and power. The 3 sorcerer powers are from his bloodline and there is no feat to increase his spell points or gain additional powers. Bards begin with 1 power Counter Performance but has multiple feats granting additional powers and power points.

Spell repertoire: If you ignore Class feats, the sorcerer will have at the end of his career 5 cantrips and 4 spells of each level. The bard will know 5 cantrips and 3 spells of each level, but have access to compositions.

The feats and powers is quite interesting. Sorcerer have to sacrifice 3 feats in order to receive their bloodline powers, which means that where the bard can choose how to evolve, the sorcerer has part of his advancement locked in at the character creation. This shows one of the big flaw of the sorcerer. It's a big package you have to take, even if you don't like half of it (hopefully, the aberrant bloodline powers are quite good).

This is the big differences between the sorcerer and the bard. The bard brings a lot utility while the sorcerer brings endurance.

The sorcerer shines with a few things here:
1 additional spell of each level
More metamagic feats: The sorcerer has access to more metamagic feats that can alter spell known, rendering them more flexible or powerful.
Concentration feats: It is easier for sorcerer to keep his concentration on spells.
Easier Counterspell

But the bard has a few things of his own:
Spontaneous Heightening: up to 4-5 Sponteanous heightened spell every day.
Compositions: Exclusive access to Compositions cantrips (let's leave the powers aside).

It must be noted that Occult Evolution and Esoteric Scholar are quite similiar (gives you access to occult spells outside of your repertoire), but the Esoteric Scholar also gives you the choice to have a third spontaneous heightening spell for a day, and is a lower level feat.

The downside is that a not all of the sorcerers metamagic feats and class feats work well with the occult sorcerer, while all of the bards feats works well for. a bard.
It is a bit hard to say anything else here. It seems to me that spontaneous heightening of 4-5 spells and access to compositions spells, the bard seems a bit more resourceful than the sorcerer, even if the sorcerer has more endurance when it comes to spells.

In the end, the sorcerer chooses 1 bloodline at first level which provides 3 powers (determined by the bloodline), 1 spell of each level (determined by the bloodline) and an additional casting of a spell of each level.
With 2 more hit points per level, 3 additional classes feats, more skills, proficiency in some martial weapons, light armor and shields, the bard might have less spell per day, but he still seems to be superior to the occult sorcerer in almost every way.
It must be noted that with 3 more class feats, the Bard can probably get as much spell per day as the sorcerer by taking the future multiclass sorcerer Archetype, which will come with additional spell known and cantrips, making the bard. an obvious choice compared to the occult sorcerer.

The Sorcerer bloodline choice is maybe too big of a choice too soon, it seems like a big threadoff and limits the possibility for future archetype by a LOT.
With only 6 class feats, the sorcerer class is the least interesting class to be going for Archetypes (multiclass, prestige or other).
While retraining is a possibility for other classes in order to mitigate some bad decisions, the bloodline being the main choice for the sorcerer class and the fact that it is singled out as an ability that cannot be normally retrained, it makes retraining unappealing for the sorcerer class.
While other classes only have to bother with designing feats that work for only one magical tradition, Sorcerers are in a special position where their class feat might not be a fitting choice because of its bloodline choice. It makes the creation and balance of sorcerer feats really hard.

These general observation about the class is currently making me really afraid of the state of the sorcerer class.

Just a few things I noticed offhand on what you said:

Bloodline Signature Skills: Sorcerers are Trained in those, so they have more skills then a Bard ("Bloodline Signature Skills: You are trained in the listed skills, and add them to your signature skills." (p 129)). I don't think that changes your opinion on the first part, though.

Spells: It's easy to miss (way too easy), but Sorcerers have a cap of 4 spell slots each level (See "Granted Spells" in "Reading a Bloodline Entry" (p. 129))

Spontaneous Heightening is the same for both classes (2 at 3rd level). It appears only Bards can upgrade it to 4 instead of 2, via a class feat (not sure where your 5 came from). While it is nice, it's not like the Sorcerer doesn't have something similar.

I will be playing a Bard in the Playtest for a session, maybe two, so I'll come back later with my thoughts on that. I can post more thoughts later.

EDIT: Slight clarity and typo fixing.

What does the sorcerer have that's even remotely similar to being able to pick and heighten two extra spells each day?

Bloodline Signature Skills: Sorcerers are Trained in those, so they have more skills then a Bard ("Bloodline Signature Skills: You are trained in the listed skills, and add them to your signature skills." (p 129)). I don't think that changes your opinion on the first part, though.

You are right, the sorcerer will get more skills then, which is interesting. Will edit my text right away

Spells: It's easy to miss (way too easy), but Sorcerers have a cap of 4 spell slots each level (See "Granted Spells" in "Reading a Bloodline Entry" (p. 129))

I do refer to it in the conclusion and that's what I'm talking about when I say that sorcerer has a better "endurance" when it comes to spells. It seems like it was dropped from one of my editing session and I will add it back in the Spell part.

I do have to say that with the heightened cantrips, it feels like the number of spell slots doesn't really bother me, especially with all of the bard-exclusive cantrips.

Spontaneous Heightening is the same for both classes (2 at 3rd level). It appears only Bards can upgrade it to 4 instead of 2, via a class feat (not sure where your 5 came from). While it is nice, it's not like the Sorcerer doesn't have something similar.

The sorcerer doesn't have something similiar. It was stated that the number of spontaneous heightened spell was limited because of the complexity it brings to the table, that's why I'm quite disappointed that the sorcerer gets only 2, but it doesn't seem to be an issue for the bard.

The 5th Spontaneous Heightened spell can come from Esoteric Scholar, which gives you spontaneous Heightening with the selected spell if you already know the spell you choose for the day. I even mention it in the current text.

I will be playing a Bard in the Playtest for a session, maybe two, so I'll come back later with my thoughts on that. I can post more thoughts later.

Please do! I'd be especially interested if you also try an occult sorcerer as well in order to compare how playing both feels. But it sure feels like the bard is in a good state currently.

Damn, seems like I can't edit my top post, I'll use this post as the official errata for the discussion then:

7+Int for the bard (and replace some skills with Performance)
5+Int+4 from bloodlines for the sorcerer

The sorcerer thus is trained in 2 more skills than the bard, but the bard can mitigate this with later feats that enables him to use occultism for a few things if he wants to.

Skills conclusion: The sorcerer starts stronger and is an very good place, but the bard can easily beat him if he wants to. This makes my final position on skills neutral for both classes.

I really want to say how much of a difference it currently makes for the bard to be able to choose which powers he want and which powers he doesn't want to invest in. It feels like the Sorcerer really should have a feat for at least his advanced and greater power, with no prerequisite for the greater power.

i've played a bard and it felt solid. About what a class should feel (one of the few i'm actually happy about), but no one in our group is willing to give sorcs a try yet (they either believe wiz/cleric is far superior for arcane/divine respectively or simply not enough time)

What does the sorcerer have that's even remotely similar to being able to pick and heighten two extra spells each day?

What would you consider to be "similar"? Simply curious. I think I can find stuff, but what I think of as "similar" can easily differ from your version of "similar". For example, I think Occult Evolution (A level 4 Sorcerer feat) is a bit similar, since you can pick any Mental Occult spell to add to your list each day, and some flexibility for a spontaneous caster is nice. I'm looking at Feats to compare, since it's a level 8 Bard feat for Bards to get those two spells.

Spells: It's easy to miss (way too easy), but Sorcerers have a cap of 4 spell slots each level (See "Granted Spells" in "Reading a Bloodline Entry" (p. 129))

I do refer to it in the conclusion and that's what I'm talking about when I say that sorcerer has a better "endurance" when it comes to spells. It seems like it was dropped from one of my editing session and I will add it back in the Spell part.

I do have to say that with the heightened cantrips, it feels like the number of spell slots doesn't really bother me, especially with all of the bard-exclusive cantrips.

Oh, when you said more spells earlier, I thought you were referring to the known spells your bloodline grants. Not simply more spell slots.

Spontaneous Heightening is the same for both classes (2 at 3rd level). It appears only Bards can upgrade it to 4 instead of 2, via a class feat (not sure where your 5 came from). While it is nice, it's not like the Sorcerer doesn't have something similar.

The sorcerer doesn't have something similiar. It was stated that the number of spontaneous heightened spell was limited because of the complexity it brings to the table, that's why I'm quite disappointed that the sorcerer gets only 2, but it doesn't seem to be an issue for the bard.

The 5th Spontaneous Heightened spell can come from Esoteric Scholar, which gives you spontaneous Heightening with the selected spell if you already know the spell you choose for the day. I even mention it in the current text.

Missed that, thanks!

I will be playing a Bard in the Playtest for a session, maybe two, so I'll come back later with my thoughts on that. I can post more thoughts

Please do! I'd be especially interested if you also try an occult sorcerer as well in order to compare how playing both feels. But it sure feels like the bard is in a good state currently.

Gotta say, I enjoyed the Bard while playing it. The DM had made a custom adventure, so it wasn't done with Doomsday Dawn. While I didn't do too much directly, but what I did by helping others felt sufficient and cool. I had taken Magic Weapon and buffed our fighter with it, along with using Inspire Courage most rounds. Inspire Courage definitely helped us get a few critical hits, too. Along with the Magic Weapon lead to the Fighter doing a lot of damage. Crazy enough, this was to the point where the Fighter felt like he was only doing good since I was buffing him. So weirdly, I felt great, but I made him feel kinda bad.

The main thing I did directly was some Counter Performance use. I really enjoy it. When our second encounter started, the enemy started to do some screaming thing at us, so I immediately countered. With a natural 20, for a total of 25, no one needed to deal with it. I had the opportunity to use it some more that evening, and while not every time did I do near that good, I'm pretty sure I was able to prevent someone from critically failing at one point, with just a normal failure. While I haven't played games with bards often, I've never seen the old version get used very much. This one was rather nice.

Occult Evolution looks significantly better than Esoteric Scholar:
- You get a free trained skill.
- You don't have to pay for and drag around a spellbook.
- You can nab any Occult spell you want (even though the Bard ponied up cash, you're still more flexible.)
- You can pick your spell during the adventuring day in a minute, rather than during your Daily Preparations.

Sorcerer is dramatically more flexible here.

I'm glad you mentioned the discrepancy between Sorcerers and the other spell casting classes in Class feats; to me, the bloodline is the main draw of the Sorc, but it feels bad to lose class feats to it while other classes get to choose from their signature abilities with a feat.

It made it really hard / unfun for me to build a decent Sorcerer (Fighter) multiclass - I looked at the bard in comparison but couldn't work the flavour of what I wanted in with Inspire Courage being the only/mandatory choice at 1st level. Made me start to think that Wizard might just be straight up better when attempting to multiclass, but I really love the Aberrant bloodline (in general, not necessarily yet in this iteration) and like the idea of trying out a different spell list.

Still, I think the build has potential, but I really wish I could select more than 2 Sorcerer feats by level 14 (this is with a 2 feat fighter splash).

100000 edits later - I would also be in favour of getting a choice between a couple abilities within the bloodline itself - maybe one active vs one passive ability at 1st level?

I don't think it's fair to count the Bard's Muse feat against the Sorcerer, since it can't be used for Multiclass feats, and is more like the first level bloodline power. The second level class feat is also a little suspect since the only real choice is to Multiclass or take the only feat you qualify for.

It would be really nice if the 6th and 10th level bloodline powers were just turned into class feats, to give Sorcerers some build options.

I don't think it's fair to count the Bard's Muse feat against the Sorcerer, since it can't be used for Multiclass feats, and is more like the first level bloodline power. The second level class feat is also a little suspect since the only real choice is to Multiclass or take the only feat you qualify for.

It would be really nice if the 6th and 10th level bloodline powers were just turned into class feats, to give Sorcerers some build options.

The first level power that the bard have is counter performance with the first composition class features. That makes it the equivalent of the bloodline 1st level power, not muses in my opinion.

I will have to say on that point that sorcerers will probably have the advantage in term of first level power since bards are locked in with counter performance, but we have to keep in mind that bloodlines are a big bundle take it all or leave it all, which means that even if you prefer a bloodline first level power over counter performance, it comes with the cost of having to accept all of the bloodline package, even if you don't like Half of it.

I really agree with the fact that the bloodline powers should be turned into feats, at least the advance and greater power. It is fine that the initial bloodline power is mandatory.

It could also be possible to introduce some kind of cross blooded concept where you can select a second bloodline like a priest can select a second domain.

Occult Evolution looks significantly better than Esoteric Scholar:

- You get a free trained skill.
- You don't have to pay for and drag around a spellbook.
- You can nab any Occult spell you want (even though the Bard ponied up cash, you're still more flexible.)
- You can pick your spell during the adventuring day in a minute, rather than during your Daily Preparations.

Sorcerer is dramatically more flexible here.

It is only mental occult spell, which means that the bard will have to pay in order to add more spell to his spell book but he has access to all the occult spells, the sorcerer does not.

Then comes the spontaneous heightening part of Esoteric scholar, which is really cool since it essentially gives you (max spell slot level) - 1 new spell known for a day.

The abilities are similar, but if you take into account that the barfdcan access it at level 2 instead of level 4 for the sorcerer, the fact that bards have more feats and the fact that the bard is not limited to mental occult spells + has spontaneous heightening with it, I'm not sure that Occult Evolution is significantly better than Esoteric Scholar.

To be honest, both are great feats!

What does the sorcerer have that's even remotely similar to being able to pick and heighten two extra spells each day?

What would you consider to be "similar"? Simply curious. I think I can find stuff, but what I think of as "similar" can easily differ from your version of "similar". For example, I think Occult Evolution (A level 4 Sorcerer feat) is a bit similar, since you can pick any Mental Occult spell to add to your list each day, and some flexibility for a spontaneous caster is nice. I'm looking at Feats to compare, since it's a level 8 Bard feat for Bards to get those two spells.

Similar would mean augment the number of spontaneous heightening available.

I consider Occult Evolution and Esoteric Scholar (2nd level for the bard) to be similar.

Occult evolution let's you have 1 spell for a day while the Additional Heightening gives you 2 extra spontaneous heightening which is equal to ((max spell slot) - 1) * 2 spells for a day, which is significantly better.

What does the sorcerer have that's even remotely similar to being able to pick and heighten two extra spells each day?

What would you consider to be "similar"? Simply curious. I think I can find stuff, but what I think of as "similar" can easily differ from your version of "similar". For example, I think Occult Evolution (A level 4 Sorcerer feat) is a bit similar, since you can pick any Mental Occult spell to add to your list each day, and some flexibility for a spontaneous caster is nice. I'm looking at Feats to compare, since it's a level 8 Bard feat for Bards to get those two spells.

Similar would mean augment the number of spontaneous heightening available.

I consider Occult Evolution and Esoteric Scholar (2nd level for the bard) to be similar.

Occult evolution let's you have 1 spell for a day while the Additional Heightening gives you 2 extra spontaneous heightening which is equal to ((max spell slot) - 1) * 2 spells for a day, which is significantly better.

Doesn't seem to be too many feats that give either class extra spells, either known or per day.

Both get Cantrip Expansion (Brd/Sor 4) which gives you 2 more cantrips to your Spell Repertoire.

Sorcerer gets the aforementioned Occult Evolution (Level 4, pick a Mental Occult spell to add to your Spell Repertoire each day). In addition, while I don't really count them since they're capstones, they get Archmage's Might (Level 20, Gain 1 10th level spell slot and 2 10th level spells in your repertoire) and Wellspring Spell (Level 20, Metamagic, 1/min you cast an unmodified two-action 5th level or lower spell without expending a spell slot).

Bards just get the two aforementioned feats, Esoteric Scholar (Level 2, Get a spellbook you maintain (these don't add to your Spell Repertoire). 1/day, pick a spell. You can treat it as if you picked it for Spell Heightening (if it's already in your repertoire), or treat it as if was in your repertoire (if not in your repertoire).) and Additional Heightening (Level 8, Pick 2 extra spells for use with Spontaneous Heightening).

So yes, if looking at solely those types of feats, the Bard may have an advantage (since you rarely ever get to play with capstones). That said, Sorcerers seem to have more damage and spell oriented feats (Dangerous Sorcery (1), Widen Spell (1), Magical Striker (4), Conceal Spell (4), Overwhelming Spell (8), etc.) than Bards (Melodious Spell (8, this is Conceal Spell), Unusual Composition (10), and Fatal Aria (20)). Most Bard feats are Composition oriented, usually giving them more. Most of those are support oriented. Make of that what you will.

At the very least, I'm sure we can both agree that Spell Heightening just needs to be ditched and Spontaneous Casters should just be able to heighten without issue.

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